The Doing Good Podcast

Common Sense & Sanity

• Kainos Caribbean • Season 1 • Episode 2

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Episode 2 of Common Sense Steps to Doing Good illuminates the often overlooked yet vital role of technical expertise in driving social change. Join Karen for a conversation with Social Development Professionals Christon Herbert anHow do you stay sane while changing the world? In this refreshing and deeply relatable episode, Karen Philip is joined by Leigh Ann Worrell and Christon Herbert to explore the intersection of social impact and project management. We’re peeling back the layers on the internal systems required to keep both your mission and your mental health intact.

We’re moving beyond the "preaching" about constant hustle to look at the practical, common-sense systems that allow you to do good without burning out. Leigh Ann and Christon share their wealth of experience in managing complex projects, offering a roadmap for leaders who want to ensure their work is as organized as it is impactful.

In this episode, we discuss:

  • The Sanity Systems: Implementing project management tools that reduce chaos and prevent advocate exhaustion.
  • Sustainable Pace: How to manage high-stakes social change projects without compromising your team’s well-being.
  • The Project Management Mindset: Why structure is a common-sense necessity for translating big dreams into real-world results.
  • Boundaries & Balance: Practical tips for maintaining professional boundaries in a sector that often demands "everything."

Whether you are a project manager, a nonprofit leader, or a volunteer feeling the weight of the work, this conversation provides a masterclass in staying grounded while doing good.

About Our Guests: Leigh Ann Worrell and Christon Herbert are seasoned professionals in the Caribbean social development sector, specializing in communications, project management, and strategic implementation. They bring a unique blend of technical skill and human-centered design to every project they touch.

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SPEAKER_00

I'm Karen Phillips, a passionate advocate for doing good. I always knew I was gonna have a career helping people, but I wasn't sure how. I've met some amazing people who seem to understand the what and the how of doing good. We often hear about their work, but who are they? I decided to have a space where they could share about their work and common sense steps to doing good. So in today's episode of Common Sense Steps to Doing Good, we're just talking about who we are, our challenges in doing good, the triumphs that we experience, and any advice that we have for other future do-cutters. And with me today, I have two of my ride or die do-cutters. One I walked up to, and I was just like, Hi, you're gonna be my friend. And she she just was like, Okay, stranger. I'll be polite to you because we're gonna work something. And she has been my friend for like eight, nine years now. It's true. Even found me a husband. She's like, awesome. And then the other one I called him and I was like, hi, I have this opportunity, but I'm not sure about the finances. And he's like, Hey there. And since then, which is like five years now. Five years now, he has been there on by my side. So um, thank you for being here, Leanne Orrell and Christian Herbert. It's just a pleasure to also do this with y'all as well. Thank you for having us. Yes, thank you. Thank you. So earlier we were talking about the challenges and well, talking about the personalities in life. That some persons like attachments, some persons like dogs, some persons are parents. Well, I was in this three, or only one is a parent. And so therefore, I think she she has the greatest challenge in doing good. Like last night I went for to dinner, and I was enjoying the company of before you're all until it was time to eat. And Home Girl had already finished eating, and so she decided that was the right time to just like keep on hitting my arm. And I'm like, you're not mine, so I can't discipline you. And I just want to eat my meal in peace. And I was like, how do parents do this? Like you they talk about the lack of sleep, but like, do you get to eat in peace?

SPEAKER_01

Like start with appearing.

SPEAKER_03

I don't really think about that challenge. Um, I have a supportive partner, so I think that really helps. A lot of times, when people ask that question of women, they just assume that they do it all. I have always made it very clear I'm not a superwoman. I have no special skills. I do not do it all. I need help. So, you know, doing work in social development like really brought home to me that we live in community, so I extend that to myself, and I rely on my community to assist me when they need to be out, when they need to do anything. Um, yeah, I think the real challenge for me is especially working with young people, thinking about how I raise my son and want him to kind of avoid the things that I see young people going through and just thinking about how I can do that with all the influences that are outside of me. Um, that's the only thing that really being in this space, like and being a parent, like I really think about, um, and also just bringing home how present you have to be as a as a parent, how much you have to pour into your child, and making sure that your child knows that you are a safe space. Um, working with different communities, like particularly LGBT communities, um, and you hear the stories about how parents abandon their children, sabratize over um gender, over their sexuality. Um, it's heartbreaking. So I think it just really underscores for me how much I want to let my child know that I am supportive, I'm a safe space, and also thinking about working with young people who are um in conflict with the law, how I can try my best to be um a good example so that he doesn't look elsewhere for role models outside of his home.

SPEAKER_00

So we kind of started by your current, like where you are now and how it shapes your ability to do good. But do you think your your community of origin shaped how you came to do good and the way you do it currently?

SPEAKER_03

Uh yes. Um, so my mother and my grandmother, they were um we I was raised at Ventus, so um we had community services. And so my mother and my grandmothers were both very involved with that. So feeding people in the community, doing give back, um, helping with community projects is a big part of their life, and um, even the little things that my mother would breed here on Sundays for a single family in the community, is God is here, yeah. Um, every Sunday, you know, um, just little things like that, just underscore how much, like I said, living in community is really important. Um, and you know, also as much as I have many things that I can say about uh Adventism, uh they are very community focused. Yeah. And so their imprint in communities, in scholarships, and you know, just being a big presence wherever they are, like that is still a big part of them. So growing up Adventists definitely helped me to see why those things mattered.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I I was so it's similar for me, it was my upbringing. Like my parents are very um externally focused in helping other persons. Like just last week, he took a bunch of boys to a fundraiser in Gala so that they'll have that experience at the higher and that kind of thing. And I grew up with having a map on the wall that we used to have to point at the countries and decide which country we're gonna pray for. Because the irony is when I said I wanted to be a missionary, they're like, whoops, what are we doing there? So I've always been also very external thinking and not knowing how to do good, but knowing that I'm going to do good in any area that I could could possibly put um put my hands to. What's your experience in stumbling into the social development do good feel?

SPEAKER_01

Um for me, it really started, I would say, maybe around you know, university stage. Um, when I was growing up, had our own challenges with regards to you know life and just living in general. Um But I feel in Barbados there's always an avenue for persons coming from certain communities to be able to, you know, aspire to do well for them and well for their families. So, you know, when I was in UE, I stumbled upon a program, Empowerment Youth International, and you know, in that program you can see children that are troubled, that don't have, you know, supportive parents, they don't have specific avenues or persons to talk to or channel their energy into. So, you know, they end up being cast aside or they end up being, you know, pushing a box and then they can't get out of that box. And that's I to me, I think that's one of the difficulties that we face as a community. And to me, it also reshaped, you know, my way of thinking. Because sometimes you could be very individual individualistic, you could go, you could go ahead on and look, this is what I want to do for me. But after seeing, you know, these situations, it made it kind of easy to say what I can do for others as it relates to you know building, for instance, in geos. I think that's something that I've been passionate about from the time I met um Empowerment Youth International, kind of strengthening their capacity in any way possible, you know, assisting them with proposal writing, assisting them with life. And you know, just harking back to the previous point where Leanne spoke about, you know, you know, having like relationships and having like children, and you know, I don't have any of those things. So for me, is you know, how do I do good in this particular environment is more for me, how do I achieve like work-life balance. Like ensuring that have a happy time. Ensuring that, you know, I able to because we we all here for the right reasons, we all here to kind of make an impact on people's lives, and we try our best. And sometimes our best might mean that we don't sleep as much, our best might mean that we take homework, our best might mean that you know we kind of try to stretch our bodies to the point where you know we're miserable. I know when I first met Karen, I did not have this many grey hairs. But you know, things things have changed significantly, and you know, it's it's kind of difficult to achieve work-life balance, but it's something that you need to do. So it's you know, whether it's tuning out on weekends, whether it's putting all in for five days and saying for these two, just leave me alone. So it's is it's very difficult to achieve, you know, sometimes you have things that you deem to be like extremely important that you can't let go. But if you like sometimes you need to set like very clear like boundaries for yourself and you know what you can and cannot do as an individual.

SPEAKER_00

Is that easy for you? Because you say that and I started to laugh because in the new environment I am, yes, I'm not I'm good with not working on the weekends unless it's extremely necessary. But then people are like, you do know that you're starting to massage us at 5 a.m., right? And I'm like, oh, well, that's when I start, my brain starts. I didn't think about it. And I'm not sure if I could say I have a good, I have I think I have a better work-life balance. But I don't know if any of us here could say that we have a good work-life balance.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I I don't think I have a great one, even though I advocate it for one. I think it's pretty okay. But similar to what you said, is is where my brain is working. Sometimes I remember something at nine o'clock in the night and I would just be like, send this message so that in the event in the morning it slips me, or you want to kind of, and this space is weird. This space is you it never ends. You don't go home and your job stops. Yeah. You kind of everything needs to be rolling, it's a process. So even sending that one message could trigger three steps after, which would have like significant impact and what you're trying to do long term. So it's hard and sometimes your mind never turns off. I don't think that's something that we could get away from. I don't think it's wholly awful, it's just a sacrifice, I guess, that we have to that we have to make to do good. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

I don't know. I'm willing to try though, because I find people really play in your face and demand too much of your time. And also what think that they work, you work on their hours and on their time.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Including on weekends, and I don't really subscribe to that. One thing that I do miss about being a practicing adventist is the Sabbath. Because at least, you know, like it or not, that sort of having that as a sort of religious guidance really did encourage people to leave you alone for between Friday evening and Saturday evening. And maybe I should just tell people that I am instituting my own Sabbath because I really do need to be left alone. I do not thrive in a life where people are constantly contacting me. I hate WhatsApp, I hate social media, I hate anything that I miss a landline. I miss landlines. I miss when that was the only way to get me. And if I wasn't there, then you would have to figure it out or try again. I feel like people do not leave each other enough. I schedule my emails out. If I I understand what y'all are saying about, you know, sending that quick message, but because I know it triggers many other things, that's why I'm like, you know what? Let me migrate this to email so that I can schedule it. You'll see it at eight o'clock, and by the time I'm ready to deal with the fallout that will occur, like I'm already working on the next day because you know, then then I'm ready. But I did it as I remembered, even for something that you mentioned. Um, I messaged somebody yesterday about something very work-related, and I said, you know what, you don't feel no obligation to respond to me now. Um, you can message me back on Monday, but I did feel this was important enough to reach out to you, but it is not like an ASAP kind of thing. We can deal with this on Monday, but I just did not want to forget. So here's the message: feel free to get back to me on Monday. I feel like sometimes there is that internal pressure to keep going, to keep doing, and then you realize that you have nothing to give, that you're stretched out on your bed with your eyes blurry, red from staring at screens, your throat is tired because you've been talking all day, and then what do you give? What do take a break right now?

SPEAKER_00

Because that's so real, that's such the reality of trying to do good and trying to ensure that it's at a certain standard. And I think, especially when you're on trying to do both sides, so you're trying to interact with the beneficiaries, you're trying to ensure that the person that that's on the ground that needs your assistance has availability to you, and then on the other side, the persons that you're accountable to, you're trying to make sure that they are happy, that the reports are written in a certain way, that all the T's are across and the I's are dot, and it could drain you. So, what are some of the things that we do? Like to, I mean, Leanne talked about scheduling emails. So, what are some other things that we could do to have like resistance to this?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I I think I'm about to enter my second phone bag. I think I'm about to get a second phone because um for me, one of the first things that I did when I realized it was becoming too much, I kind of um turned off my notification for emails. Okay. I found for me, because it's so hard to shut off um on Friday, if I got email at seven o'clock and it just flashed across my screen, it will push me to touch it, to touch my laptop, to do things that you shouldn't be doing on Fridays. Um also I find too that now my personal phone has become my work phone. Yeah, and I have almost 200 people additional to the people that I actually know, and you know, interact with family and stuff like that on my phone, you know, enjoy people, good people. But sometimes I could come with, you know, random messages, random requests, and you know, sometimes even looking at, you know, messages from um specific people could kind of trigger, you know, the need to go and work and need to go and adjust things. It makes it, you know, very difficult to navigate. So I think for me, I think a second phone is a step in the right direction. Um just uh just so that when I pick up this second phone, I know that there's no anxiety attached to it.

SPEAKER_02

There's no and you can post what you want on that.

SPEAKER_01

Exactly. Exactly. There's no fear or anything, it's just my personal phone, not my non-real the second phone be like your online what Liana's talking about.

SPEAKER_00

Like this phone, you get me from eight to four after that.

SPEAKER_01

If I check it on the weekends, yeah, but lucky, but you could that's the thing. So that doesn't when I say I turn off my notification, that doesn't mean that I don't check my emails on weekends. That means that sorry, that means that I actually schedule myself or when I'm ready to go, I can go. So it's not attacking me. So it's it's a lot easier to deal with. So I'm not saying, you know, I'm inaccessible, you can't get Krishna. It's just when Krishna is ready to be, you know, engaged in that manner, Krishna would make himself available fully, and that's I think that's healthy. A lot healthier than you know what was happening previously.

SPEAKER_00

I remember when I started to try to set these boundaries and and not respond to the million and one emails on Sundays and all that stuff, I felt so guilty. I felt like my I realized I had to do a lot of self-wake to realize that like my work was being connected to my worth. So therefore, if I was not accessible, if I was not responding, if I was not on somebody's ball forever, never letting that ball drop, then what am I getting paid for? What am I existing for? And it it took a lot to realize that rest is productive, and that's what the Sabbath is for. Whether you're practicing or not, you as a human, you need to rest. And in that rest, you can find the energy and the and it's not even that you're you're working for the rest, like you just need to rest. Rest is productive. So if it is at a day in the week or weekend or whatever else, you're just like my bad and I are one now. The errands will have to run themselves, the emails will have to wait. It's something that's needed, and it's I was just it's a it's a challenge for me. It's a challenge to separate those two things and still feel as if I have words, still feel that I'm contributing to society. Along it's it's been a journey. It's been a journey, but I mean it's also been a journey, just as because I because I didn't know what I wanted to do, I just knew I wanted to do goods. So I went from wanting to like own an orphanage to wanting to work in a church, the whole missionary period, like Logos Hope. Like I wanted to be on the boat, like you know, ride or die. And then my body was just like, you do know that you you get sick if you miss a meal. Like the rough and tough life isn't really you're not really cracked out it. And then I was like, oh great, gonna do social work because I'm gonna teach everyone life skills. I'm gonna be the next motivational speaker. Oh my god, I was gonna change the world again. I had yeah, and then I realized I didn't have good boundaries. So I had that. I was just absorbing everything that everyone was telling me, which is another challenge of doing good. So yeah, boundaries are tricky.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I think I think there are many facets to doing good. I think there are the people, as you said, that are on the boats, there are the people that are you know running through the jungle just ready to save, but they're also the people behind the laptops, behind the technical stuff that allow the other persons that are you know very passion-driven, very, you know, very in the community to be able to do what they do. And I think that is also as you know as important because we even you know teaching proposals and you know how to write and stuff like that, that is not everyone's strong suit. So there's definitely a need for you know good across all margins. And I think that's important to acknowledge as well, especially when we, you know, when we look at ourselves as do-gooders, because we may not feel as though, you know, we do as good as you know the person that actually hands out the packages. But if we are in the position to get the person that hands out the packages the money to do what they do, I think that's just as you know, pivotal to that implementation.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I agree with you. Um so I manage a mentorship program, and sometimes I do see like the real doegathers as my mentors. So they're the ones who have the relationships, they're the ones who get called, um, you know, they're the ones who spend time um with the children. So I really I really did see it like that, and I remember um what shifted my perspective was actually the mentees. One Christmas I went up there to do something or you know, drop off something. I don't remember, and I got a card and a handmade ornament that I still have, and they said to me, um, if I could, if we could meet you all over again. And you brought this program all over again, like we would be so happy. And I was into it's like I still have that card. Like I said, I still have the ornament because it really underscored to me exactly what you said. Like, there are people who do, you know, who are at the front line who take the pictures and stuff like that, but then there are other people like us who make sure that everybody's in the right place at the right time, um, receiving the training, receiving the support, receiving the counseling, um, to make sure that they can get this stuff done, you know, and I think that we definitely do have a role to play because I'm sure that you both have seen where um the absence of implementation in the face of a good idea means that your good idea doesn't get done.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Right? You know that organizations with some of the best and brightest people behind them don't want to book a room for a conference, don't want to extend to their network to get them to come to a workshop. They don't want to get those things, they don't want to book a caterer. But these are the things that make that work um go. Yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_01

And there's some people that just can't do it. You know, they can't, they can't do it. Sometimes it's so hard for them to detach from what their passion is that even facilitating their passion sometimes is could be difficult. Yeah. So you need you need these children to be at this room at a specific time, and they just care so much about the children that they can't even, you know, fathom, you know, how they're gonna get this process started or how they're gonna get the money to feed them. And a lot of the time that results in them paying out of their own pocket, them using their own money to facilitate activities. And yes, it is good in a sense, but it's not necessarily the greatest idea to invest so much of your personal belongings or money into action when there are other avenues you can get money towards that action as well.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so I think that is one of the many like conundrums of our sector about like let's have boundaries, let's not take our own personal money to achieve things. Because you kind of have to sometimes, I think.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I do agree. I do agree is all right, so I'll uh not backtrack, but I'll take that piece of it. I think it is necessary sometimes to push things along in terms of like if you plan to start off an initiative, if you know there's not a lot of donor back in a specific area, or you have challenges, you know, mobilizing funds, I think that is good. But I think there are also other avenues to achieve that without running yourself into either debt or bankruptcy as a result of you know, as a result of your good. Because if you don't have the money to do it, then you can't do it anymore anyway.

SPEAKER_00

It's unsustainable. It's unsustainable, right? So right. I I'll just take that with a pinch of salt and a lot of nuancing because there are some people who continually do it, and but yeah, they don't want to put reports into place, they don't want to put structures into place, so therefore they're gonna have an ever-ending cycle. And then there's just sometimes when the man and you, the man, and the system's just not working, and you know the problem is in front of you, right, and this could fix it. And sometimes we just need to fix it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, no, I agree, I agree.

SPEAKER_03

Sometimes people also safe towards it, right? Or put businesses, put their own business in place to make it happen. So people find ways to make it work. Teachers do it all the time. Exactly. They took their money and buy all kinds of things for for um their classrooms, for their students, pay for lunches. So even at all levels, folks find ways to fix problems that are immediately in front of them when structures don't enable them to rely on them to get it done. Right, exactly.

SPEAKER_00

So we heard about one of Leanne's triumphs, one of those moments when she was like, Yes, I will write these reports, I will deal with all the program management stress if it means that these mantees are touched and provided for in a way that would bring a positive change in the future. Christian, do you have any of those aha moments?

SPEAKER_01

I feel like it might be a cliche, might be a ghetto, but I feel like everything I do in this space gives me that feeling.

SPEAKER_00

Which I think is You're like a permanent dopamine.

SPEAKER_01

Which which is weird, but for me, I enjoy putting out the research paper. I enjoy just as much as I enjoy putting out you know videos because I know the long-term impact it can have if somebody even clicks on them. And I think that's important to me. I also enjoy the opportunities when you know you have these grantees, you fight with them because it's a fight. Um, you do your fight with them for financials, you fight with them for narrative, and then at the end there's a closing ceremony or graduation, and you just feel like okay, I can rest easy knowing that at least 20 people that entered this program or did something, it made a positive impact in their life. And yeah, to me, that that is always the major selling point when you ask me why do you work in the social development sector? Because that's it. You do it for the love, you do it to change people's lives across the board, regardless of you know where you come from, creed, race, ethnicity, you just do it for doing good sake, and that's it for me.

SPEAKER_00

You definitely sound like you're on a permanent high, and I cannot relate because there are days I am like, Leon, why are we doing this? Like, why? But I love that for you.

SPEAKER_01

But maybe I'm I'm speaking from my place, which is you know five years of experience, so you guys have a lot more uh experience in this space than me. Maybe that's dope. Maybe I'm in a honeymoon stage of social development. But maybe after you know 10 years here, I'll go like, oh my gosh, this is enough. Maybe I'll have that eventually, but I have not hit that point as yet. I mean, it's not to say there weren't difficult times, or there were times where I feel like I was just ugly, but you know, for me in general, once I see the final output, I am usually very calm with whatever happened before, with what it took to get to the final output. So it don't really matter to me if we had three fights, if at the end of these three fights you get what you meant to do done does that warms my heart enough to make me want to do it again. Okay.

SPEAKER_03

I think I think yes, you know, those grand moments are are great to live for, but those those little ones are also quite wonderful too. So for example, I was getting something done with my car, and I had the this really interesting conversation with these two men who I was um there with, and um, yeah, because um a feminist, so that's what brought me to this space, and they they started talking about gender in a very interesting way. I won't repeat what they said, and um I started to laugh, and they were like, What did you find so funny? And I said, Well, I teach gender studies, so it's interesting to hear you in this space talking like this. I was like, Oh, the indoctrinated children. I was like, Calm down. I'm at university, so your kids are fine. Um, and you know, I wasn't able to, I'm not sure if I changed your mind um on some things that they would have said, some of the things that we um were talking about, but I did get them to see like a really key part of like what I talk about, which is an equal relation agenda. So something as simple as that. Obviously, they don't name it like that in the space that I'm in, but I was able to translate the concept. So they were talking about how oh um men, men is be is some of the top chefs in Barbada's all of these top chefs men. I said, yes, exactly. I agree with you. So when it's time to be compensated, men are at the forefront of what happens in your house. I was like, oh well, you know, in the housey woman got cut. I was like, so what is it that the top chefs that you can think about in in the I don't know, when we call in top chefs' names, we're not calling women's names, but when it comes time to call when money is involved, we we can list right a lot of the men. Like that's an unequal relation. What you see as labor for the house is a woman's work, but what you see as labor for for value in a in a public space is men's work, right? And why is that? And how do we change that? And he would and I didn't I didn't get a lot of pushback, so I consider that a win because you know we were quarreling about everything else.

SPEAKER_01

I think that might have struck home.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00

I had I had a similar conversation. They were the the gentleman was trying to say that we waste our money on these gender-based violence prevention campaigns because a banner is not going to do anything. Well, I'm thinking, well, here we are talking about said banner, so I think it could do something. And um, it was just that interesting conversation, hearing his views and how somehow the blame for the violence kept being centered on the woman. And I was like, but you're saying that it takes a strong man, so therefore, it takes a strong man not to do it, to just let the woman be and exist. I was like, so then shouldn't we work with the man to be a strong man? And what is a strong man? And he could not define a strong man, but he could define what the woman is doing wrong and all the things that needs to change in that sense instead of paying for a banner. But he was kept pausing like to think about it when I was asking the questions, and I was like, okay, at least you're thinking, and trying to find the answers to it. And for me, yeah, I used to have the word feminism, and I was just like, oh, I remember when I was younger, I used to be all over the place, like, I am a feminist growing up in church, and I'm like, no, and everybody's just like, you are the scum of the what is wrong with you? Have you not read your Bible enough? And I'm like, I have, have you? Um, so all of these challenges, but those interactions, those being in the street is what fuels me to be able to do the reports. So I don't have that constant dopamine high that Christian has. I have I like my my computer, it's safe. Type, type, type, type. Okay, I need to actually see the the output of me being on my computer. I actually need to be where the NGOs are, see their work, understand who the people are that I'm fighting for. Because if I'm giving you, if I'm if I'm defending you to get a grant or something, I need to be able to be like, yes, I could put my head on a block that these people are doing good work. I've met with them, I've met with their beneficiaries, it's much needed. And that gives me that kind of fuel to go to go forward.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and Lianne, yeah, when people hear feminist, people think radical feminism all the time. Yes. And there are a multiplicity of terms that I guess Lianne would be more uh equipped to get into. But what I would say is, you know, that does not take away from the movement. You know, when the in the 1930s, when the riot started, there were radicals. Yeah. It was necessary at the time to make significant change in the lives of people. So there's always a space for radicals, but it's not to use, for instance, um radical feminism to kind of shut down all feminists and say these people are problematic and this is why this movement should not work or would not work going forward. Um and even like looking at those advocacy campaigns, those advocacy campaigns to me, yes, they're meant to stop the like end violence against women. It's meant to end violence against women. But sometimes people, I guess, take it like two-no once, like the aim is not to like everybody that sees the post is not gonna automatically stop. But if for instance that post uh crosses maybe a child in his early stages, you know, seeing things happening to his mom that he doesn't agree with, and you know, it could have a long-term impact on him in terms of you know, he changes his behavior. I don't want to use here eventually all the abusers will die out. But uh it it kind of it kind of leads to maybe a better society if most of the children across the region, across the world see these campaigns and go like, okay, that's wrong. Um, I shouldn't be doing that. And then they become sensitive, they become better with women, they become they stop drinking, they stop, you know, facilitating abuse and stuff like that. I think those are like the crux of these campaigns. The campaign there are persons that are too far along. The reality is you probably need severe counseling, you've been doing it too long. Um you could you know relapse, you could go back into a situation, you could be easily triggered. But those persons need greater intervention. And I don't think that those campaigns subtract from those greater interventions. I think those greater interventions happen. But those persons need to also identify themselves for those campaigns to actually move along and take route and you know facilitate the change that we want to see across the board.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

I think working on this issue um with young people has been particularly telling. Um first because you think that young people are a little bit more progressive, and I've realized that's not the case. Okay, they're not wholesale very progressive on an issue like that. And it's because the way the justification at its core remains the same, but the way it gets articulated shows up differently in a different time. So they're gonna talk about um if I invest in you and you break that investment, um, then you know, you bring out my anger or you bring out my wrath, right? Which is women as property, right? Um, or you see things where um like street harassment, you know, there are ways that that gets justified. So how else am I gonna talk to you? How else am I gonna make friends? How about not like this, especially when women have repeatedly said over time, no, we don't like that. Um, I also find that um backlash has gotten really strong. Um and it is also coming from young people, right? So I don't know. I feel in the intervention really gets needed at all at all spheres because while you will find some really wonderful young people who, you know, you you feel hopeful about an issue like this, then sometimes you just like you're scratching your head. Especially like something as simple as like I could I talk a lot about talking to young people about consent, like they're just it's not it's not clicking, right? And um the sort of possessive narrative of relationships, this person is mine, and how that gets interpreted into a whole range of harmful behaviors. They talk about tagging them. Um, my students were telling me about um sharing your location on Snapchat, just leaving it on, and having your partner as your close friend so that they always know where you are. These kinds of things is just like, oh, I'm in love. This is what I should do. And I'm like, no, no, for everybody, don't do that. Like, this is a form of possessiveness, which leads back to like another, like a core issue around um a partner as property that you know, like I said, is is very old, but is just getting reinterpreted with technology, with change of time, stuff like that.

SPEAKER_00

Like, you know that I am so ready for this conversation. Yeah, like she mentioned shooter as man, she mentioned consent, and I want to start with the content because I don't think it's just the younger generation, I think it's how we are brought up. As in you have a child, the child sees Auntie, and you're like, you have to give Auntie a hug. And I'm like, it's the child's body. If the child does not want to hug me, I'm okay. Just give me a high five. And they're like, no. And I'm like, I'm like, consent starts from a young time, understanding that this is your body and you have control over it, and then you go into the gym, and the instructor just whips out his phone and decides to make you content without asking for consent.

SPEAKER_03

Oh my god, uh can I just like everyone ring? Everybody just out of the phone, like all the time. Like, can I please just exist?

SPEAKER_00

Can I please? Could you ask me a question? Let me move out of your frame, let me have so it's not just young, it's it's all over because also like yeah, and a lot of adults be like, no, you must take the picture. And I'm like, why, why is it a family photo for private use, or is it a photo that you want to share with everyone, and this this human being is not being allowed to say no?

SPEAKER_03

I also wanted to add one quick thing. I made that point to say that the advocacy programs, um, the banner that we talked about before, like those things were in tandem with other things. So like those things just don't stand alone. So I think the importance of even like public-facing advocacy campaigns is that they work um at systemic levels. So you're working on policy, you're working on legislation, you're working on changing hearts and minds, and you're reinforcing that message in public places. So you see a banner, um, you see a social media post, but these things don't stand alone, right? Like that's not how it works. And that of course a banner alone won't be effective. A bus stop, a bench pit poster thing won't won't stand alone. It's thoughts and prayers and policy, right?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, but that's what usually people associate it with. People just see the banner, just see bus stop and go like, we're just gonna do for anything. I just like think that's the end of it. But even in today's society, it's impossible to fall in peace. Like back in the day. You cannot fall anywhere in town, anywhere in public before being seen and made fun of. It's it's very hard to operate in this digital environment that's not, you know, conducive for just human living. We all make mistakes. We all we will fall, we will drop, it's just, you know, don't capture it for me. I don't, I don't need the memory.

SPEAKER_03

I I'm glad you said that though, because I find too, as we think about like social media and stuff like that, that I also worry about people who um are worried that people just do it for cameras. I mean, I understand how doing things on social media and making yourself visible on these spaces do bring you money, notoriety, and access to um spaces of influence, but I worry that, you know, once that goes, like what is your passion, what's your drive, what's your ethos, and then in moments where you fall down and breach down, like don't stop, you stop. Yeah, that you stop because like what was what was really behind it in the first place, right? Um, and also I don't like to see when people do things for people, like nice things for people, oh, a hamper, and you that the first thing you're gonna do is have a camera in that person's face, you know, here's me. Doing good. Here's me giving back.

SPEAKER_01

For me, for me, there are appropriate ways to do certain programs. And I've seen and heard of instances where, for instance, you're going to deliver, let's say the COVID hampers is a good example. You're going to deliver COVID hampers to vulnerable households. You walk through a gap with 10 houses to with 10 people towards Patsy house in the back. It's obvious that those 10 people know that Patsy is going through something. And that's not the intention. The intention is to help her. Yes. You know, you can't kind of make those persons worst off just to deliver a hamper. And I think that's the that's the challenge. Because sometimes everybody just wants to do good. But it don't matter, you know, the I guess the after-effects of doing that specific good beyond that moment. Cameras, no.

SPEAKER_03

You know, and even personal stories also.

SPEAKER_01

Even for me, dealing with grants and granties and stuff like that. If you tell me these specific people that you're working with cannot be photographed, cannot be, you know, cannot be shown, cannot be seen, they're young, they're, you know, they're at risk of violence and stuff like that. I don't need to see them.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I don't need to see them.

SPEAKER_00

That's something I firmly believe in the ethical storytelling. Just take a picture of the hamper itself. You don't need to have a picture of Patsy and all of her house and everything to show that she is in distress. Yeah. You could write the story in a way to tell Patsy's story without allowing me to be able to pinpoint where Patsy is and who did what to Patsy. You could leave her with her integrity, you could leave her with respect. The same way you want to be treated. Another good thing when it comes to content and doing good is would I want somebody to speak about me in this way? Would I want my business in the street like this before I press post or before I submit this report?

SPEAKER_03

And then have that reproduced. And then my trauma is just living another life without me and a life that I can't take back and a narrative ultimately I can't control. Yeah. You know, that's not fair. You know?

SPEAKER_01

I think I'll give one example that I think does it pretty well. Um when I was at school at SMS, the canteen. What is SMS? St. Michael's School, sorry. The canteen. Um there's a line for, you know, you go in and you purchase it right away, and then there's a line for like orders and I don't know if this still exists, this was a while ago. There's a line for orders and um you don't know if persons are going there because they have orders or if they're not in the situation to collect food. And sometimes that was the case, and I thought that was very well done because you can't tell, for instance, who's being given lunch or provided with lunch versus who you know paid for lunch and stuff like that. I think that's important to I don't want to use the word blend, but to blend those persons in to the space so that they themselves are not, you know, picked out, made fun of. You know, there's as you say, there's ethical ways to do it that make it, you know, sustainable for the person as well, and they could operate as normal. Because they're normal people, they're just not in a position to to um to opt to whatever.

SPEAKER_03

I also think that that also gets um it also gives you ability to see it less as a sort of individual moral failing and something that, you know, you show how things are just working against you, whether it be like systemic poverty within the uh household or a bad shape, or um even as we think about our times now, like how families still have not recovered from COVID, still have not recovered from massive job losses, um, the mental toll that lockdowns took, um, the sort of psychological trauma that happened when um there was domestic violence within um within homes at that time that you didn't feel like you had an outlet or any support for, and now everybody's just telling you to get back to life, get back to normal, but some people just have not recovered from then, yeah, right? And so when you treat people in ways that are fair to them, that are just to their um experiences, then you are playing a part in their lives to help them to recover and potentially to see the good of living in community as well. I think that that's um something that I just really want to emphasize that we're just taking care of each other. Um when I think about how my grandmother talked about growing up and even the things that we glorify as the good old Beijing days, we're just people taking care of each other, living communally, and that we seem to have lost, but I would say not completely. There are still people doing that. I see a lot of good examples of that within the queer community, of how you know you just make make do with each other and you rely on each other to build community, and I think that that's something that we just really have to emphasize. We keep looking to say, This is me, I did this by myself, this individual um achievement, I got it alone. No, that's absolutely a lie. I got through university because my grandmother gave me money, yeah. Right? I got through secondary school because somebody pressed my clothes, somebody gave me lunch money, somebody cleaned my shoes, I did not have to take care of a sibling so I could do my homework. Yes. I had a quiet place to do my homework. I had lights, somebody was paying the light bill and the water bill so that all of the conditions that I needed to focus and to ultimately do well were being taken care of. And if we and if we don't see it like that, we kind of miss the point, and then we say, Oh, I got this alone, and then you think that everybody who isn't making it or who isn't alleviating themselves out of bad situations can't do it because they're not trying, and that's not and that's never the case. That's never the case.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, we talked about all the stuff that we went through, our triumphs, and how we navigate doing good in our realities. But what if you had to speak to somebody who's coming in to themselves, trying to decide, because a lot of persons don't even know what social development is, and what is this do-gooding life that we do? What will you what advice do you have for a future do-gooder?

SPEAKER_01

Um, for me, I I think for young professionals, especially, a bit of it is coming into the space and knowing, for instance, your worth. This could be monetary, this could be time, this could be you know, just your effort. Just know if you give a hundred percent, ensure that there is a hundred percent given to you and given back to you. I think that is very important. You know, see spaces, fill out spaces, be very aware because you're the chances that individuals could take advantage of young persons and their willingness to do stuff. So just be very careful. Come into it with a good heart, come into it with a good mind, as expected, but just know your worth as a young professional entering this space. You know, sometimes we see it too often that we bring people into the space and you know take advantage of them, and it needs to be ended. It needs to people need to see just because you're 23, just because you're 25, it doesn't matter your age if you add value, add value, full stop, and you know, know your worth when you join this space. That's rich.

SPEAKER_03

Um it's funny that Krishna mentioned knowing your worth because I ask people to do things for free a lot. Um, because sometimes don't have money to pay them. Or the rooms that I'm putting them in similarly don't have money to pay them, but I see the value of their expertise. So I would say um pay people when you can. Yes. Yes. And also if you're going to constantly put people in spaces or rooms where they're doing unpaid labor, also put them in spaces or rooms, call their names in spaces or rooms where they can also be compensated. I think that um the NGO sector um should abolish unpaid internships. Um, there's no unpaid life, everything costs money. And um, I think that if you're gonna be asking people to do things for months, months on on end, you should compensate them accordingly. Um so um yeah, I think I think those are the things in terms of the professional, like the person who wants to do it, um, I would say just put mechanisms in place for burnout, put mechanisms in place for. Um, I would say just as you structure your time, as you structure your resources, also build in time for rest, build in time for breaks, schedule time um away. Um, I think those things are really important, and that's also what keeps you going. And also, what else did I want to say? Also make sure you have sound structure and good people behind you. I think, as we talked about, you want to just get into the field and get things going, but having, you know, being registered at Kuipo, um, making sure that you have a board, all these things help to keep you accountable, and then you also have people behind you saying, Hey, what do you need? Or maybe you should take a break. That's why always tabernacle and Rondell, maybe you should not say yes to this opportunity. Are they paying you? Like maybe you should lie down. You know, you are young people. Um, take some take some time for yourself, just something that you enjoy. When's the last time you went to a party or a restaurant or something like that? I think they don't lie down enough, and that's my advice to them and to all of you out there lie down and turn off your phone.

SPEAKER_01

Uh, for me, you also said something that triggers something for me is when you can do. So when they come into this space, they come in with a lot of passion. I mean, I entered this space uh based on a gentleman's agreement with Carrie, just knowing that you know that I would have the experience that I needed to, you know, use my degree. Because for a lot of young people in Barbados, I will speak for Barbados specifically, they need the experience, they need you know opportunities. There's not a lot of opportunities going around and just giving away to people that for instance don't know anybody. Right to say that's right. But that's the reality, and sometimes people need experience, but when you can do so, when you could pay them, make sure that you pay them what they deserve. That's all you're saying.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I just wanna like what she said out to me is she said, keep good people around you, and y'all have been my good people. Like, if we wanted to get a little biblical, it'd be like when Moses was fighting and he had two people holding up the hands to add the sun went up. That have it, that has been y'all to me in my journey of doing good. And I just want to thank you so much for being who you are, supporting me the way that y'all have supported me and being here today.

SPEAKER_01

Well, thank you, Karen. Thank you so much. And you know, we I know me and Leanne have seen Kinos become its own beast, I would say. It started as an idea, it started as something you know you were very passionate about, but it's taking on a life of its own. And like for us to be the first persons, I think on this podcast is amazing for us as well. And you know, we really appreciate the opportunity to help you and you know see you do good as well.

SPEAKER_03

Exactly. I I think I know for sure, even as I was getting ready, my partner was like, Well, you're leaving your house at this time on this day and it's not work there. And I was like, Yeah, because if it's like one person who I know calls my name in rooms of opportunity, like I know that Karen will do that. I don't ever doubt it. So if you have somebody that pours into you, then I think you owe a duty to pour back into them, to give to them in ways um that they want you to. I believe you should show up how people want you to show up. So I I know that um it took some thoughts, but I knew I was gonna do it. So I'm really honored, yes, um, as Krishna said, to be here, and I am certain of your success.