Common Sense & Compassion

Can "doing good" align harmoniously with your faith, or are they destined to clash? In this thought-provoking episode, Karen Philip sits down with the insightful Kerriann Hurley to grapple with the complex intersection of Christian beliefs and social impact.

We’re moving beyond the "preaching" to look at the real-world challenges of putting faith into action. Kerriann shares her journey of navigating sensitive topics like reproductive health and youth advocacy within a faith-based framework, offering a masterclass in leading with both integrity and impact.

In this episode, we discuss:

• The Intersection of Faith & Action: How to navigate "doing good" without causing unintended harm or compromising your values.
• Responsible Stewardship: What it really means to manage resources effectively in a world of urgent, competing needs.
• The Viability of the Calling: A candid conversation on how to sustain yourself financially while pursuing a life of service.
• Mindset Shifts: Moving from judgment to intention when planting seeds of change.

Whether you are a nonprofit leader, a person of faith, or simply someone wrestling with how to make a difference ethically, Kerriann’s wisdom offers an invaluable guide for a more equitable and sustainable path.

About Our Guest: Kerriann Hurley is a dedicated advocate known for her work at the intersection of faith, youth development, and reproductive health. She brings a unique perspective on how to bridge traditional values with modern social needs.

Connect with Kerriann: Keriann Hurley | LinkedIn

Connect with The Doing Good Podcast:

• Website: www.kainoscaribbean.com
• Instagram: @kainos.caribbean
• LinkedIn: Kainos Caribbean

Subscribe & Review: If this episode resonated with you, please subscribe and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Your feedback helps us reach more do-gooders across the globe!

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

I'm Karen Phillips, a passionate advocate for doing good. I always knew I was gonna have a career helping people, but I wasn't sure how. I've met some amazing people who seem to understand the what and the how of doing good. We often hear about their work, but who are they? I decided to have a space where they could share about their work and comments and steps to doing good. So welcome to Comments and Steps to Doing Good. I'm Karen Phillip, and today I have one of my favorite do-getters, Carrie Ann Hurley, who is also a do-getter who sings. Welcome! Thank you. Yeah, and so we we started off talking very Christian, talking about the goodness of God and and you know what joyful noise. Um would you say that's how you got your good-doing interests?

SPEAKER_03 0:57

I mean, it definitely is who it's a calling. It's a calling. So yes, because I think every calling comes from God, He puts certain passions and desires and things into you, and it is up to you to you know pursue them and to seek to live them out, right? Yeah, because you could totally disregard them and be like, nope, not doing that. But from very early, um, I realized that I was just the person among my friends who they would seek out for support, for guidance, for whatever they needed. And I was always very willing to do to help. I was just like, I got you. What do you need? Yeah, how can I help you? Right? Um, and it didn't feel like a burden. It didn't feel it came really easy, it came really natural. Um, I've always been very creative from the time I know myself. I've been singing, dancing, doing art, fashion. Like I pursued, actually, before I even really got into, as you call it, the do-gooder space, you know, that's like a social practitioner type vibe. Um, I was actually pursuing a degree in fine arts.

unknown 2:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 2:20

Yeah, initially. So I came out of school and said, I'm gonna be an artist. Well, if I backtrack a little bit, I actually wanted to be, it may seem disjointed, but everything connects.

SPEAKER_02 2:30

Everything.

SPEAKER_03 2:31

Everything. I actually wanted to be a marine biologist when I was in school. Okay. Sucked at physics and chemistry, uh, you know, was doing pretty good in biology, but like I loved everything anything to do with marine biology. And I was like, yeah, that's what I'm called to do. I need to be out in, I don't know, Australia or somewhere in this world, diving in the ocean, like you know, like doing research, like that's me. Um, I didn't really get, I guess, in hindsight, I don't think I got the best career guidance where that was concerned. And so I was made to think, or at least I thought from the guidance that I was given that because I didn't have all the sciences in the way I needed to have them, that this was now totally off the table and out of reach for me. Yeah. So I was like, okay, well, what else am I like good at, passionate about, well, and it was art. Um, so I actually then had applied to BCC to their art program, their flying art program.

SPEAKER_01 3:40

What is BCC?

SPEAKER_03 3:41

Oh, the Barbados Community College. Okay. Yeah. So this is coming out of secondary school. Okay. Right? Um, I applied, I went in. I was not successful in getting into that program that year. Um, it was like we had so many applicants, the list, it was real hard to like even that's sad.

SPEAKER_02 4:02

It took me three times before I got into university. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 4:07

So here I am out of school, with like, what's my plan B? Because I'm not gonna be home doing nothing. Um, even if I wanted to, my parents was like, girl, you gotta mind yourself, figure it out. So I was like, okay, well, what should I do? And um, I took that almost like you know, like in the US, I talk about a gap here. Yeah, I kind of took that as a gap here to just do a little bit more like aspiring of okay, well, what other what what other education can I do that is supportive towards like what I like? So I thought about how much I really like helping and supporting people, and I was like, well, maybe it'll be helpful if I do some more like learning or within the space of like sociology. Um and then I was like, and then it's it you need to know how to manage money. So let me just do accounts. It was very random. I was like, I'm becoming an adult, I need to figure this out. Let me just do account. So for that year, I focus on just like doing another degree in sociology and an accounting degree. Like, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:09

I must say, if I had accountant techniques, no way.

SPEAKER_03 5:13

I look at that, I'm learning new things for you every day.

SPEAKER_02 5:17

Because I needed to lean up to find a way to earn money, and I just wanted to do good, and my parents were like, everybody needs an accounting.

SPEAKER_03 5:25

True, it's so true, and I'm sure that skill comes in handy.

SPEAKER_02 5:29

No, I don't remember anything from that training. Oh my god, and I still struggle with numbers to this day, so yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:39

Are you debunking the whole thing about nothing being wasted? Because I believe nothing is wasted.

SPEAKER_02 5:45

No, it's not, it's definitely not wasted at that time. Like, I mean, the whole sorry, so the whole time of going through the different things, I still remain stubborn that I was gonna do good. Gotcha. It was just how was I gonna do good and earn money? So I have tried different things. Right. I did a nail tech course to be like, I'll be the nail tech on the side. I was like, I was like, okay, didn't really do that. Then I was like, I was gonna sell items, didn't work, and the accountant code plus my parents for supporting and paying for these things that I'm qualified in. And funny enough, the only thing that I've been able to be like a side hustle to the do good is something that I just love. So I started to make sorrow because I love sorrow, okay, and then I was giving it to one of my service providers as like a thank you Christmas time, and I was giving I was just giving away the sorrow, and the people were like, You should sell this. We need more, and you clearly will have to pay. Like, if you're making this, yeah, for it. So we will pay you to make more, and that's the only side hustle that has been like repeated. Oh. So I'm in my 4A of selling circle. Again, I also did not know that. I'm learning so much, and yeah, because doing good is challenging, and you don't always get consistent weak. Yeah, we're gonna talk about that. So that balance you said you would you didn't get the career advice that you were looking for.

SPEAKER_03 7:29

I I mean in hindsight, I think again. So if I go like pivot back to the comment about nothing being wasted, I do think literally it worked out for my good.

SPEAKER_02 7:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:39

Because I see how my journey, all those steps led to where I am today, and the passions and all the things that I have, how how where I am today now is really the fulfillment in many ways of what started back then. Um and I'm still very much passionate about climate, and like literally, I'm still working in the space of working on climate justice and climate change, and getting to like do things like beach cleanups and you know, tell people about not littering.

SPEAKER_02 8:19

I'm I'm curious too. Did you start off as a marine biologist? But if anybody knows Carrie Ann, Carrie-Anne is going to be wearing butterflies, and for those who are just audio listening and not watching us, she has on a green shirt with butterflies, earrings with butterflies, and her phone is covered with a lady butterflies. So, how do you butterfly tattoo and the tattoo is butterflies as well?

SPEAKER_03 8:47

Um, girl, butterflies for me, uh they're not just like this like cute thing that I love, it is very meaningful, it's really a part of um who I am, the essence of who I am. But I think of my life and my life's journey is very much like that of a butterfly. Um, so growing up, I was always a very, let me let me put it this way, I was always a very passionate person, very um strong-willed, um, very um, like my mouth, I say what I feel. And it's hard for me sometimes to like um hide my emotions. I rear my heart on my sleeve, and um, I wasn't always maybe the virgin of carry-a-n that you see today was not the virgin of carry-on that I was growing up. Um maybe, yes, I my friends will always come to me for help and advice, but I'm sure I cut a few people with my tongue and just the way I was, and even in trying to do good, and maybe I did a bit of harm without knowing better or knowing how back then. Um and so for me it's been really a metamorphosis, a journey of change and understanding like how a butterfly becomes a butterfly. So coming from this caterpillar, which on the outside is very some caterpillars, even though people may not like them generally, you have to admire their beautiful colors and the patterns and all that stuff. Like, you may not want to have one as a pet or like touch it, but you're like, oh, it's pretty, it's beautiful, right? But exactly that, you don't necessarily want to go around it, per se. Okay, or embrace it. So sometimes parts of my life was like that. I may have been well put together, beautiful, whatever, but some people might have been like her personality is a little right, and so like God really did a work on me, on my life, on my heart. Um, and submitting to that and literally being willing to go through the process of change allowed me to come out on the other side as a beautiful butterfly. Still flawed. Because when you think of how butterflies even emerge from their cocoons, how they fly, they're not very straight-lined. Um, you know, they're kind of like figuring it out. Um, the winds sometimes can really cause them to um feel pressure, like if a strong wind comes, it might push you down. And my life has been like that, you know, going through trials and difficult situations that some can floor you, can really, really push you down. And some things that for some people you don't, it's hard to bounce back from or you don't bounce back from. But that butterfly keeps going, they're intentional, they have a purpose, and they're going after that. And that's literally my life. So for me, butterflies are very you know, like if people talk about having spirit animals, that's my spirit inset. The butterfly. It's very much me. So, like, musically, I'm not as Sira, I'm not even known as Kerry Ann, I'm not a Sira musically. And most people who really know me musically, they call me the butterfly lady because um it's a motif that I use a lot in my music and in everything that I do. And um, my first um my debut album is actually entitled Butterfly. Yeah, and my I guess you could call it my biographic song. I don't know, it's also which is the title track of the album, is also called Butterfly. So it's it's really about my journey of change.

SPEAKER_02 12:29

So yeah. I mean that's completely um beautiful, and the fact that you understand that life's a journey, it's not something stagnant, and that you've done that self, which is not easy. I keep doing and keep doing to be like okay, there's some things that I did do wrong, but I'm still with love. I am still with the adoration. And I I I know that's something that I've struggled with. Okay, I know that that's something that's that it could be hard to reconcile. Yes, to reconcile, especially um well, we we both grew up in very in very Christian also.

SPEAKER_03 13:11

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:13

So we we're gonna we have that connection where we're like we want to do good, yeah, but good is expected in this box, in this box, in this it must look like this, it must be presented this way, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:27

And if your presentation of it is different, that's a problem, right?

SPEAKER_02 13:34

So Carrie was a rebel. So how did you rebel? How did you how did you find your way of doing good and holding on to your faith?

SPEAKER_03 13:44

Really, like locking into the fact that I have to be authentically me. I was miserable if I tried to do it any other way than the way God put it in me to be done. And that doesn't mean that I'm I wouldn't be open to like guidance and you know good criticism and all the things that can really help mold and shape you for the better. But I'm talking about, like you said, when the expectations being placed on you are shaped a particular way because of where you come from, who you're connected to, what spaces you're occupying, and it has nothing to do with who you are authentically, or like persons aren't willing to embrace um your expressions. Like my mom always asks me, if if she was a carry-on, if everybody in this world was like you, this world would be a boring place. And I was like, the oh, Miss Creative? How could you say that? But I get what she means. Because we need variation. Oh, okay. We need people with different perspectives and viewpoints and expressions, and so that we can actually really have a beautiful mix and we can actually have the best of anything, right? If everyone thought the same way, um assumed things the same way, expressed themselves the same way, it will just be this linear one way of doing anything, and it will be a very boring place to exist in because everything will also be very like um you could just you just know what will happen. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I I get that, but but it's hard.

SPEAKER_02 15:26

It's hard, and it's hard to like try to talk policy and try to talk about systematic change, big words, big words, Aiden and being like everything is not a spirit. Jesus, we are going there. We're gonna pause for that one. That and we are not negating that we don't wrestle against flesh and blood. Flesh and blood and that there's spiritual and we have hum we are humans with free will, yes, and therefore we need to take responsibility for our actions and do work on ourselves, absolutely, because two things can be true, and then from that work, do work that is good, yeah. And on a community basis, let that be the overflow, yeah, on a community basis, and then like I said, the systematic changes, yeah, and all of that thing. How was that easy for you?

SPEAKER_03 16:32

Um, so how do I handle that? Well, again, it's been it's been let me let me say this. It has not been black and white for me for sure. Many, many shades of gray. Um, lots of self-discovery and figuring out not just how do I want to show up in the in that intersectionality, but how does God want me to show up in that intersectionality? It's also been tough um reconciling the fact that he may have called me, not may have, he has. It's very clear for me that he has called me to be in spaces that maybe other Christians, other people will never go into. Because for them, it's like that is completely against everything I stand for. Um, but he gives me the grace. And I think like how I said, like when I was first realizing that I'm called to serve in this way and that it was never a burden to do this kind of work or to help my friends to help, you know, um, even being in certain spaces and having to engage in certain conversations, certain um speak on certain topics, um, speak on how you can be a real, real, real, real Christian and still serve people who are vulnerable and who may not be the kind of people that society wants to embrace or maybe making choices that even as a Christian, you're like, I that's not what I think you should be doing. Like, no, yeah, but I see your humanity first, yeah. So, therefore, because I see you as a human, I still love you and I want to help you, and I'm not gonna judge you because I'm also flawed.

SPEAKER_02 18:33

That's like so so the new term is an image bearer, right? Like they say that we're all image bearers, and therefore we need to treat one another with the same love and kindness that God is treating his him, because we're his image bearers, yeah. And you just brought that home again. That once again, this he put us here to take care of it and stewardship.

SPEAKER_03 18:55

To be his hands and feet and his feet. How are you gonna do that if you're sitting in your corner being like, I'm saved, I'm going to heaven, and you don't care about nobody else. Like, what are you doing?

SPEAKER_02 19:08

I don't think it's only that. Like, I I remember being in a room once, and we were talking about creation care, which is climate change, and how how do we steward the relationship that we have with the world itself, and we were talking about going into communities and helping them build community gardens and teaching them like small steps to reduce their carbon footprint and stuff like that. And one of the participants were like, if the church is going into a space, if the church just needs to preach the gospel, it doesn't matter if the person is hungry, if the person is close, or if the person is doing something that's harming the environment, we care about the gospel. What would what would you think? Or how do you how do you as a Christian do that? How do you navigate that space with that kind of I don't agree?

SPEAKER_03 20:18

Because how can I think any Bible I'm pretty sure talks about it like how can a person or how how much or how how possible is it really for a person to even not just hear the word of God but respond to it if they're hungry? And that's their primary focus at that time. If their primary needs, the things that they are really consumed with are all that's occupying their mind. And I've I've seen it in my work as a social worker where I've been maybe trying to present a particular thing to someone I'm working with, and they're there and they're like, uh-huh, uh-huh, yeah, okay. But it is not, it's not even penetrating because they're so focused on, right, I hear you and I know that's true, but I'm trying to figure out how to get food for my child, like right now.

SPEAKER_02 21:13

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:14

So if you're worried about being hungry and your children being hungry, me telling you about something that is equally important, but is not in your mind, in terms of your list of priorities, it doesn't rank. How is that gonna help you? And I feel like where Christians are concerned who take that approach, um they're missing the mark. And they're doing more harm ultimately than good. And to me, it sometimes I feel, and I've seen it, it creates an environment where people then actually push away the gospel, push away the good news because they feel like it's just been. thrown at me without considering my my full humanity. Um and then they're not really open then to embracing it, to pursuing it, to even letting it do the good work because they just disregard it from the jump. So I I don't I don't subscribe to that. For me, while I am helping you get your groceries, while I am helping you figure out like how to deal with your self-esteem and rebuild your sense of who you are while I'm helping you um literally do all the things that are your pre on your priority. While I'm doing that, I'm also showing you how this is not just me carry on doing it. This is actually God.

SPEAKER_02 22:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:48

Meeting you where you are. Like you were hungry and you couldn't figure out how to think. It's not because I have either resources myself or access to other resources that I can link you to. God put you in this place so that you can be connected. So you need to see who it really is that's taking care of you, even in your lowest time. And that's preaching the gospel, that's telling them through works, through your good deeds, and also having conversations about the goodness of God.

SPEAKER_02 23:20

Do you have a like because you say that he gives you degrees? But like when you're in these situations where you feel like there's a conflict or uh intersection between faith and doing good, how what are like, I don't know, talk us through. How do you go through that?

SPEAKER_03 23:39

I pray, I'm like, Lord, you gotta figure this out for me because this is not it. Um, I've had those experiences. Um, so I work in um sexual and reproductive health, um, been doing that for about 20 years now. I know I I look like a baby, but I've been I've been around for a minute. Um, and I've been a social worker for quite a while. Um, so the bulk of my social work um life and practice has been within the sexual and reproductive health and race space. And of course, that means I'm gonna be dealing with lots of taboo topics. So we're talking about um sex workers, sex workers, we're talking about the LGBTQ, you know, community, we're talking about um young mothers, unwed, you know, having multiple children, all these things that society generally looks down on as and will not necessarily jump to support and help because of how we feel about them, right? Um, and so there have been times where I have been in spaces where things that are either being discussed or maybe agendas, external agendas that are being pushed, definitely do not align with my faith.

SPEAKER_01 25:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:05

And I literally do honestly pray and say, God, this is not it. So please make a way of escape, like figure it out. And there have been times where I've either then no longer had to be on the project, or um uh he's put people in my space, but he's given me the right words to use to not compromise my potential how I stand and where I sit, and still, because it's not a but, and still help and do good and not do harm. And to be in some instances uh a testimony to those persons who may be considered marginalized and stuff, that God still loves you, regardless of who you are, what you do, your your past, your experiences, whatever. Like, that's not the thing that's on, well, for me, yeah, that's not what's on display and not what I'm concerned about. I'm concerned about you.

SPEAKER_02 26:04

Yeah, but it's the power of the and a and d. It's the picture of well for me to learn that, especially in my doing good, because humans tend to speak in like these finalities, right? So I help so if then, yes, and I help this if and you will always look for the perfect person to help. You have to be suffering in a certain way, right? So we're putting parameters on the suffering, yes, and we have to check this and we have to check that, which I mean if you have some understanding of why it probably started because some people do try to work these things. Yes, yes, yes, but at the same time, and we could do these things and coexist, not necessarily meaning that we are endorsing, not necessarily meaning that we are practicing that same lifestyle ourselves, but because we live in a world that is full of his image bearers.

SPEAKER_03 27:04

Yeah. Like, why am I gonna judge a girl or woman who chooses to have a termination, an abortion? We're going there without understanding the full context of her situation and what even led to that decision. I have worked with women and girls who have decided to have terminations, not because they wanted to. Some of them were in circumstances where they were forced to. Let's talk about that. Because we're only seeing determination, right? Yeah we're not seeing the things that are influencing and causing that end result, right? We're not seeing the brokenness in relationships, the abuse, the all the other things. But that calls for empathy. It calls for empathy and it calls for a love of curiosity. I want to understand why you why now not why in an accusing way, but like this has to be a hard decision. I don't think anyone is gonna sit there and be like, you know, today I'm gonna run to the grocery store, I'm gonna go um to a yoga class, um, and then I'm gonna pass by the doctor and have a termination, and then I'm gonna leave from there and go and pick up um my dry cleaning, and like it's not just a list, it's not just on your laundry list of to do things. Like you don't just get them like it's a really big decision that any woman, and we gotta say woman because men don't have them, right? So a woman, a girl has to be the one to make that choice. It's a huge decision. So I'm curious, what would have caused you to be in a place where your decision is this? What has influenced it? What is impacting it and guiding it and pushing it? Help me understand so that I can help you in how and there let's also be honest, there's some women who are like, I just want to do it. They're very flippant. Yeah, but that's not everyone. We can't paint everybody with the same brush. And I'm also very much of the opinion, if we're gonna say that God has given us free will, we have free will to choose to follow him or not. Why then are we removing will when it comes to things like autonomy of our body and what we choose to do with it, right? It to me, free will is free will and it covers everything. It doesn't mean that you are, again, like you rightfully said, you're not endorsing or supporting certain things, but the reality is this is what it is. So who am I to dictate to another person?

SPEAKER_02 29:59

I feel like we went we we went straight in the deep end, and I'm sitting down here and I'm like, baby, do good I can would be dying because I the pro life doing the presentations, going in the streets and all of that. That that was me. And me now and and where we are now, I'm like okay, I probably did not have all the information that I needed when I was making those decisions. I don't understand some of the situations, I don't understand some of the medical terms because even now with the pushback and the the change in some of the legislation globally, people are saying what y'all are calling an abortion is a medical miscarriage or whatever. So a lot of women who thought that they were just having a miscarriage and not realizing that the procedure that was helping them to pass the child after the fetus was also part of having what the general term is as abortion. And it's just like, did I have all that information? And do I have all the information now? Probably still not. Like, where do I really where do I stand? And that's one of my that was one of my concerns. Um when I think about like doing a podcast. We're on a podcast. Yeah. Because I'm like, is somebody gonna judge me from for past views? Am I gonna be allowed to change my position if I say something on this now? And then two years later, I'm like, well, no, I was presented with new information, and I don't know how I feel about my stance anymore.

SPEAKER_03 31:51

And I mean, and that's okay. It's okay to go through the nuance of thinking about how you thought about things before, and then coming to a place where, okay, now, like you said, with new information, new insight, new understanding, having a different feeling. Um and I don't think you should be judged for that because we do it in many instances for many things, we do it with fashion. I mean, cheese on. Yeah, at one point you might have been like, those jeans or skinny jeans? Never in life. And then people don't want to realize, ooh, yeah, actually, look pretty good on me. And all of a sudden, you're like, you know what? I actually don't feel that way about these anymore. I'm okay with skinny jeans. Like, you you change your view. So, not to trivialize it, because obviously we're talking about a really like heavy, important, serious topic. But I think the principle at work is the same, and I feel like at the end of the day, human beings are not black and white. Life is not black and white, and we there's so much, like using the word nuance again, that we are not privy to, that we don't fully understand, and especially on this side, like when all this comes to an end, and this earth passes away, and we come into the new dispensation, then we will be enlightened about a lot of things. We'll be like, oh, I didn't know that. That makes so much more sense now on the other side. But while we're here, we have to work with what we have and ask God to give us his insight and his guidance as to how to make the best decisions. Um, and I just I think for well, for me, having a position of saying I think it is the right of a woman to choose does not mean that I'm not pro-life.

SPEAKER_02 33:40

Go on. Let me let me get this because like I told you, you already confusing, you're confusing baby to go, even now where I'm saying that I don't know where I stand because there's a lot of information and I don't have the ability to do a deep dive to know where I stand anymore. I know where I stand for me, but to be like, this is my policy stance. Yeah, I don't have that information. I don't have, as a Christian, I believe in life. I believe that you're not supposed to take life.

SPEAKER_03 34:16

Yeah, the sanctity of it. Yeah, right. And I I think like I have that fundamental belief. The sanctity of life is absolutely important, and I don't think we should take it as this flippant thing that you could just make, you know, a decision on and be like whatever.

SPEAKER_02 34:34

It's no Tuesday, get my coffee.

SPEAKER_03 34:36

No, like no, we're not doing that, yeah. And like I said before, and maybe it is because I have the experience of many years working in in spaces and having to engage with women who have been faced with such decisions and getting a better inside and understanding of the nuance that they have to wrestle with. And realize, okay, right, it really is not so black and white. And and then going back and talking to God about it. I mean, like, Lord, help me. Help me understand how this sit with you, how do you see it? And always coming right back to the whole understanding of free will, and that he, his grace is extended even to a person who makes the choice to do it flippantly, right? Like, he doesn't write them off because of it. It's certainly not something he wants, and is and by extension, it's not something that I'm there like, yes, do no, don't do it. And if you don't do it, then what? Like, how what is your life? Like, so there's so many other things I think that have to be taken into consideration, and it doesn't display, it doesn't cancel out one or the other.

SPEAKER_02 35:53

And we can't even talk about this it. I mean, talk about this and leave it as just this because there is so many systemic issues that influences a woman's that's the point I was making. So it's not only her choice as in just whether she wants to be a mother right now or not, but also does she have access to food? Does she have access to a good job?

SPEAKER_03 36:17

What is her community? What is what's was her family situation? What kind of support does she have?

SPEAKER_02 36:22

So we often just think of the final decision, that final act, but we don't realize that the reason why they're doing this is because of the lack of access to food, lack of access to paying jobs, lack of access to to a good to good housing, even community community, family, support, friends. Yeah, because like you could give you could say keep the child and I give you a hamper. That's gonna feed me for what two days. So then how do we as Christian do-gooders do good in a way that does not do harm? That that takes in consideration the whole picture. That's a hard question.

SPEAKER_03 37:04

And it's it's it's a hard question, and it's not one-dimensional. Because I think we need to be in all those spaces. We need to have representation in all those spaces. So we need to have Christian Dugetters who are working in poverty alleviation. We need to have Christian Dugetters who are working in um uh well what else we talk about? Climate.

SPEAKER_02 37:32

Climate, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:33

Um, we need to have Christian Dugders who are working in, I mean, all the things. My mind is drawing blanks right now in terms of all the different sectors, but you need to have people in all those spaces who are seeking to help influence policy change, policy, policy change that will have real meaningful impact as it trickles down to the people who actually have to live out that policy, right? Um, we have to have Christian Dugatters who are creating programs that are a lot more sustainable, that are not just these one-offs, like, oh yeah, I just want to do some hampers and do a uh a hamper drive at Christmas. Yeah. And then for the rest of the year, there's nothing. Yeah, right. Um, because we need we need we need some of everything. We need to have the programs that are giving hampers and stuff like that. And then we need to have the ones that are also working on the deeper issues, yeah. The the the life skills, the psychosocial things, you know, the therapy, all the things because they have to go hand in hand.

SPEAKER_02 38:42

Yeah, so in one of the other um episodes we talked about they have those who are on the forefront and they're those who are on their laptops, the ones who are crossing the T's, doting the I's, and making sure that the paperwork is done and that everybody's in place where they're supposed to be in place. And I feel like you're saying the same thing that we need to have synergy across the board, right? So, like one of my like my favorite Christian do getters, the the two American women, um, Natalie Grant, the singer. Okay, yeah. Right, so she has uh anti-human trafficking organization. So, yeah, she sings, yeah, she does her work in her church, and she's also doing good in trying to end because slavery, transatlantic slavery ended. Yes, but it's but slavery and human trafficking is so very much a thing, and she's working on that that end, and then another favorite one of my um Christian two gutters is Beth Moore. She's a Sunday school teacher, okay, and she has a million and one devotionals, but also I'm like listening to her, and one of the things she does is when a woman um buys a cast iron pot, you know, you're supposed to season the cast iron pot, she will take that pot from them and she will go through the process of seasoning the pot for them and praying over the pot and praying for the household that they will be fed from this pot, like blessing the household through the process. I was just like, I have never thought of this. This is a tiny way that we could do good, but it just seems like we'll pray.

SPEAKER_03 40:19

We know prayer. We don't let's not underestimate the power of prayer.

SPEAKER_02 40:22

Yeah, but like if you go into a wedding, you just buy an idea from me, like, all right, this is my budget.

SPEAKER_03 40:29

But if you're being intentional, even if it's your budget, but you say, Lord, like this gift, you know, intentionally. Come on, we do that always. No, we don't. So I'm I'm supporting what you're saying, and and and I never thought of that either. Yeah, and I think that is amazing, like to be able to say, okay, God, but this is what I have to offer, this is what I can do, but in doing this, how can like how is your blessing gonna manifest and show up in this abundantly beyond the here and now? Yeah, you know what I mean? I think maybe, maybe I don't do it that way, but I definitely have that heart position with the work I do with young mothers. So I am not wanting to see them have two and three and four and five more children.

SPEAKER_02 41:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:23

And I understand that oftentimes it's it's a vicious cycle. Yes. For a number of reasons. Um and every time I am engaging with them, I am praying that something that is being, some seed that's being planted will germinate and take root and will grow into the fullness of whatever God wants that tree to be in their life. Right? So whether it is helping them really value themselves a lot more to be able to have stronger boundaries and make better decisions, whether it is giving them access to um do a skill that can help them make money, yeah. You know, whether it is helping them just also improve their life skills just so they can be a better, feel, feel more, um, feel more able to actually parent the child or children that they have without having to feel like I I don't have this and I need to lean heavily on somebody else for it. And sometimes that leaning heavily on someone else causes them to have another child.

SPEAKER_00 42:38

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:40

And but I like that you said earlier about this is where God called you to serve and this is your space. And even when I talk about um the parts and whatever else, you're like, well, you know, I do that also in my circle because I know one of the challenges that we have in the Christian circles is that when we think about doing good, yeah, we think Sunday school, we think the youth group, but if we really want to do good, we need to be a missionary or we need to be a pastor, and you're here and you're like, no, like doing good is a daily activity.

SPEAKER_03 43:16

Absolutely. You can do good in your office. You don't even have to be a social worker or a psychosocial practitioner like me. Like you're at work, you have proximity to people at work, you may see needs, and needs aren't always again, it's not always about a person is hungry or you know, impoverished in some way. There are other needs that the Holy Spirit will show you. How can you do good in that way to that person? Yeah, for that person.

SPEAKER_02 43:50

So when you say something you're like at your height, when you've been doing good, like this is something that that motivates you to keep going.

SPEAKER_03 43:59

Ooh, well. I really have a passion for working with young mothers, like I will say in just now. I think like ultimately I'm really called to that. Um, and when I see these girls thriving that have gone through the program, and you know, we stay connected, is you don't get discarded once you finish. Um, obviously the connection changes, no, but I mean it will change. Yeah. The kind of connection will change, but it is never a severing completely. Um, but to be able to like see, and it's not everybody, let's be honest. Not every single person comes out like 100% changed right away. And then I see sometimes like a person that may finish the programming, you're kind of like, did they really gain anything? I hope. And then maybe in like two years, you see them again, and you're like, and they come and say, you know, this has happened, that has happened, whatever. And you really see so that's what I mean. Those those seeds that were planted. There's some people that come to me or come into my space or into the programs that I do. They're coming at different stages of their development. There's some people who come in literally with fallow ground, ground that you know have to like really cultivate, dig up, now plant new seeds, and and begin that watering process. And somebody else will continue watering, and so, and then you know, there are some people who come in who have just little seedlings that are sticking out, and you're like, okay, I need to help, help, you know, protect you and guide you, and maybe put a stick in it so that you could grow around it and just you know, not fall over. There's some people who come in who have trees that are up, but they need pruning, they need, you know, some dead leaves cutting off. So, like, what stage of development is this person coming at? And what do they need? So, but for me to be able to see people thriving, yeah, not just surviving, but thriving, honestly being renewed and having like a real fresh sense of purpose and like seeing that sparkle come back, and they're they're they're they're passionate to just keep trying, even if it's just to keep trying, like not to give up. Yeah, I mean, sometimes we want to see like big miracles, right? But sometimes the big miracles that you decided not to give up. Yes, and I'm like, thank you, Lord, because not giving up, right? So it's it's a it's a mixed bag, but I think largely like yeah, to see to see the persons that I get the privilege of supporting thrive warms my heart.

SPEAKER_02 46:50

Yeah, well, you're on the forefront, so like you're on the ground dealing with with beneficiaries day-to-day, my beneficiaries will be more like you, and I am behind your computer. And so one of the things that, and I've say this repeatedly, one of the things that keep me going is when I get to be in the forefront. When I get that privilege to do a little site visit, a little something, something, and see what's happening, then I'm like, all right.

SPEAKER_03 47:17

Yeah, that fighting with the funders, yeah, so it's worth it. Let's get this report done now so they can see how their money has been the impact of it, the positive impact.

SPEAKER_02 47:31

Yeah, yeah. Who would you say are some of your favorite do girls?

SPEAKER_03 47:38

I don't think I've ever really sat. Well, okay, my mother. My mother. Maybe the first and foremost. Because a lot of um God obviously has given me my own unique passion, but I've been privileged to see her um really serve others in a way that has been really inspiring and encouraging, and um with from a very genuine place, like not doing it because you know I'm trying to make a name for myself and trying to get anything out of this personally, but just for the sake of helping people, just loving people.

SPEAKER_02 48:23

That's my mom, too.

SPEAKER_03 48:24

Yeah, so and and maybe I I'll be honest, and as I'm talking about it now, it's it's dawning on me that maybe like in my formative years, observing and witnessing her serve in that way, it it didn't resonate in that way. It was just, oh, this is just what mommy does, you know, yeah, just not realizing the vastness of it and like how deep it actually goes. Um, but now that I am older and I am intentionally doing this kind of work, like it makes sense now. I can I can connect the dots, yeah. And I am really happy that I can actually say that she is definitely um one of my favorite do-gooders.

SPEAKER_02 49:11

My mother is also very um outgoing. She's very about if there's a need and who much is given, much is expected.

SPEAKER_00 49:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:22

Um, and I remembered I did a little campaign where I was highlighting women and you were one of the women. Yeah. And I got this message and like, I hope you're highlighting your mother. Your mother is such a powerhouse, and she has been doing social development week without any papers, without anything. She sees a need, it's gonna be fixed. There you go. She is, I tell everybody, any experience I have with fundraising, yeah, is just from watching her. Yeah, because I I do grant writing and she she does the integrity of that calling, being strategic, see who we could partner with, how many, how many blocks do we need to sell in this book to be able to get this done. She she's able to do it and execute it, whether or not she realizes it.

SPEAKER_03 50:14

I think that's awesome. I just pray that I'm like half of that for my daughter. You know, like you are definitely more than half. I when I think of legacy and like the legacy I want to leave, I I want to continue that legacy. I want my daughter to grow up. Um, in a space where like loving people and serving people is just what we do. It's like second nature, it's not something we have to think hard of doing. Um because, like I said before, like this is how we are God's hands and feet in the earth, and this is how you live a life poured out. I don't want to die like holding back um anything that I can share with others. So whether that's my gifts, my talents, whatever.

SPEAKER_02 51:00

Yeah, so I collect church aunties and uncles, like their medals, like um people ask me, I'll be like, Yeah, so Auntie Ann or Auntie this, and they're like, are these, and I'm like, no, these are persons who've shown me kindness and in their way of doing good, my life has been impacted, so therefore they're stuck with me for as long as you know you're saying that, and that makes me also think of another lady right now who and this is not just doing good to other people, but she's literally the good that she's doing is really positively impacting my life and my family's life presently.

SPEAKER_03 51:43

Um, because we always think largely of big gestures, right? But like this, there's a lady right now who is actually supporting because my life is crazy, hectic. Yes, yes, it's a lot, and I remember I was praying, I was saying, Lord, um I I need help. I need help with balancing and juggling. Like, you've called me to do a lot of these things, all these things, most of these things. Some of these things I'm probably taking on that I probably need to let go of. So let me also be honest. But largely within it, like it's it's tough, you know, just juggling the day-to-day responsibilities of parenting and life and stuff. And I was like, I need some help. And he sent a lady to really help with some like fundament basic things, yeah, yeah, yeah. And her act of kindness, like changed everything. Everything. So you see what I mean about being God's hands and feet, yeah. Like, literally the way that she's serving God and helping my family is freeing me to even continue to do more and not be bogged down with things that was stressing me before, and that was causing me then to not be able to be free to really do more in what he's called me to do in those ways. And like, so I feel like we it's really good to put that that scope, that frame on it. So people understand like to be a do-gooder doesn't mean that you have to be like on a big platform or you don't have to be a super academic, you don't have to be a social worker, you don't have to be like me behind my laptop, you know. Yeah, yeah, you don't have to be on any world stage or literally just just serve people, yeah. Just serve people, love people. What advice do you have for future do get us? Advice? Remember your why? I think that's critical. Let me hear it, like break it out. So, why are you doing good? What is the thing that's driving you, pushing you? Like, where did you even choose to serve? Yeah, yeah, um, because life life and it can blur the lines and muddy the waters, and you can get distracted, and you can get jaded, and you can get delusions, and you can get annoyed and fed up, yeah, and all those things. And you always have to come back to center. Like, why? I have experienced that along the way multiple times. Um, why? Why am I still why do I still have a burning deep on the inside, even though I'm really exhausted and tired and I'm frustrated and not getting any funding, and I'm not feeling like I'm getting the support or the acknowledgement of all the things. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel like I'm literally banging my head against the wall. But why do I still feel like I have to keep doing this? Um who is it for? Ultimately, for me, it's for God because I want to please Him. Yeah, and I want to make sure that what He has called me to do is what I am seeking to do. You know?

SPEAKER_00 55:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 55:08

You know what I mean? I want I want to make sure that I'm doing that. And I want that the people that need that are getting it. And so my way keeps you know just coming back to center. Um so yeah, remembering your way, spending time remembering your way.

SPEAKER_02 55:32

Yeah, that's definitely important because that goes back to like what I was saying. Like, you know, I need to step out from behind the computer, step out from behind whatever it is, and just see and be like, okay, this is why I'm doing this. Let's let's go back in and and do it properly and do it well. And you you gave so many jams about um serving where you are, that it doesn't have to be something big. You talked about the fact that it's not just a black and white situation, that all situations have nuance, and that we need to just have like context, have that context and have empathy, and sometimes you may not get the privilege of getting that full context.

SPEAKER_03 56:20

And I think that's okay. Yeah, like nobody owes you their suffering, no one owes you that. Um, everyone isn't gonna be willing to gift you their vulnerable vulnerability because we're guarded for reasons, right? It's been misused and abused and all the stuff. And so we protect it.

SPEAKER_01 56:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 56:44

Um, but if you are genuinely, if you're genuinely out there to just serve, that doesn't even matter. Whether you choose to reveal everything to me or not, is not gonna be the thing that will determine whether I will still help.

SPEAKER_00 57:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 57:03

Because that's not my way. I'm not, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 57:06

My why isn't my why is not to judge you.

SPEAKER_03 57:09

No, no, my why is to care for an image bearer, yeah, exactly. So it really does come back to that.

SPEAKER_02 57:17

That's really powerful. And I think we're gonna end there. Thank you so much, Carrie Ann, for being here with us today on Common Sense podcast.

SPEAKER_03 57:27

Thanks for having me. This was fun. I said, well, we have to do it today. For sure. There's so much more to talk about, definitely.