Common Sense & Courage

What does true allyship look like? And who are we, really, when the spotlight fades and the hard work of social change begins? In this raw and deeply personal episode, Karen Philip is joined by Ranako Bailey, host of the WeTalkingBois Podcast, to explore the powerful intersection of courage, gender equality, and intentional leadership.

We’re moving beyond the "preaching" about allyship to look at the uncomfortable truths of doing the work. Ranako shares his journey of navigating sensitive conversations around masculinity and social justice, offering a masterclass in leading with both your head and your heart. This is a roadmap for those willing to risk being seen in order to create a more equitable world.

In this episode, we discuss:

• The Courage to be Seen: Navigating the fear of pushback and the unexpected beauty of showing up authentically in social change spaces.
• True Allyship: Moving beyond performative gestures to become an integral part of the solution in gender equality and beyond.
• Managing Impulses: How to lead with intention rather than reaction, especially when dealing with complex social tensions.
• The Long Road: Confronting the reality that "we may all die and never see the change, but we still do the work."

Whether you are a leader, an advocate, or someone wrestling with how to show up as a better ally, Ranako’s wisdom provides a common-sense guide to leading with unwavering hope.

About Our Guest: Ranako Bailey is the host of the WeTalkingBois Podcast and a dedicated advocate for gender equality and intentional living. He is known for his bold approach to challenging traditional narratives and fostering deep, necessary conversations about social change.

Connect with Ranako: Ranako Bailey | LinkedIn

Connect with The Doing Good Podcast:

• Website: www.kainoscaribbean.com
• Instagram: @kainos.caribbean
• LinkedIn: Kainos Caribbean

Subscribe & Review: If this episode resonated with you, please subscribe and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Your feedback helps us reach more do-gooders across the globe!

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

I'm Karen Phillips, a passionate advocate for doing good. I always knew I was gonna have a career helping people, but I wasn't sure how. I've met some amazing people who seem to understand the what and the how of doing good. We often hear about their work, but who are they? I decided to have a space where they could share about their work and comments and steps to doing good. Alright, so welcome to comments and steps to doing good. Today I have with me my guest Ronaco Bailey, and he's also a do-gooder, and part of his doing good is having a podcast, We Talking Boys246, and we're just gonna talk about our challenges, our victories in doing good, and also trying to create our own media so that our voices could be heard by the masses out there. So welcome, Monaco.

SPEAKER_03 0:56

Thank you for having me. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 0:59

Yeah, so Vonaco, you you have your own podcast. This is my first, this is my first season. First try at this thing. I'm sorry, new. Like, how has this process been for you? As in for you, you're a bit more of a veteran in this space than I am.

SPEAKER_03 1:14

I wouldn't consider myself a veteran. Um actually only recently we actually released the fourth episode yesterday.

SPEAKER_04 1:20

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:20

Um, I think funny enough, the so the name Be Talking Boys, um, the organization has a podcast name in itself wordly. Um, and we always knew that, but we never really had in terms of not necessarily the courage, but in terms of the manpower to really push to actually you know start a podcast, but not just start. We wanted that when we started the podcast, we'll be able to commit to doing it, um, to doing it um for a foreseeable amount of time. Um, and then some of our um, I guess we call, for lack of a better word, stakeholders, friends, would have kind of just gently nudged us. Um we did first episode, um, and actually we in episode three or four, I think episode three, we actually moved into the studio, and that was really interesting. Um and funny enough, when we moved into the studio, we kind of touched on a slightly controversial topic, um, but it was well received, and you know that showed showed me specifically how you know a simple conversation on these things, the you know, the vibe was there. Um, you know, it was very conversational.

SPEAKER_01 2:26

What things? So what is we talking boys and what are the things that we're talking about?

SPEAKER_03 2:30

So we talking boys is a NGO in Barbados. Um we also have a few members in Trinidad and Tobago, love Trinidad. Um and we would have started um you know, focused on men and boys, men and masculinities, and it would have started on the two premises. One, um the the co-founders would have actually during COVID, believe it or not, we understood that you know we needed a space. Um and as I was sharing in the podcast episode that we just released, we talking boys actually started out as me forwarding messages to four persons, forwarding messages to three other persons, and got tired of forwarding messages, the same messages to three persons, started a group chat, and then the group chat began and it you know expanded into a Discord server, and then what we have today. Um and then the second premise that we um base ourselves um around um is particularly around GBV.

SPEAKER_01 3:26

Um what is GBV?

SPEAKER_03 3:28

Gender-based violence, sorry. And one of the things that it's we we we understand is that you know the facts are facts. Men um you know often are the most perpetrators when it comes to GBV. Um so what we do, are we talking about is we challenge ourselves. How do we move? I like to say, how do we move men from a position of a cause to be one of solution? Um, because and there's always a quote that we always use, um can't remember the name of the author immediately. But basically says that if women could have solved this by themselves, they would have solved it a while ago. So in understanding um the role that men play.

SPEAKER_01 4:04

Yes, hold on, no, no, no, no, no, no. Yes, if women could have solved this, we would have solved this a long time ago. Could we unpack that statement? That statement is so heavy and so needed a discussion about that because it also it often sounds like you know, oh, you feminists always talking and you're uh talking, talking, talking to the women, but the women are also talking to the men. But it's not the movement isn't happening the way that we would want to see it, or the quickness in which we wanted to see it, and there's a need for allyship.

SPEAKER_03 4:46

Agreed.

SPEAKER_01 4:47

There's a need, and I I know the pushback is always, but men suffer too.

SPEAKER_03 4:52

You know, I'm laughing because uh, you know, I've been in spaces where um, you know, even as I was sharing earlier, we were um on Friday in the gym, and just I don't know how that happened. We just randomly, the entire gym just randomly had a whole male conversation. Um, and one person, you know, when the when somebody asked me if it was a feminist, one person asked, one person said feminist femininity. And I had to stop them and I said no. Yeah, you know, what feminine looks at, what feminism looks at is the equality of all.

SPEAKER_05 5:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:25

And oftentimes, I guess, by I guess in terms of comprehension and quick analysis, people always think feminism, femininity, and not necessarily seeing the overarching um themes when it comes to equality for all, as in equality for men as well.

SPEAKER_01 5:43

Um, so yeah, I think Yeah, and that the fact that is not that women are trying to replace men. Correct women have always been working, women just want to have pay for their work and be able to stand before the court or have bodily autonomy. Be able to get into a legation without having to have their partner sign consent. And when we say so, we talk employees are trying to create that space for where men are able to be allies in the fight against gender-based violence. That's what I understood you too.

SPEAKER_03 6:19

Correct, yes.

SPEAKER_01 6:20

Um, but what made it like your passion to have this space for men?

SPEAKER_03 6:27

I think what made it I often say that gender found me and I didn't find gender. Um, and it is really the truth because um I remember in secondary school, and this is gonna sound really strange as to what I do personally know. Um, I started off in secondary school wanting to be a chef.

SPEAKER_05 6:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 6:44

I went from chef and then I wanted to get into paramedic science.

SPEAKER_05 6:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 6:48

How the switch happened from paramedic science to it's okay. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 6:54

My sometimes don't let me forget that my first thing was like, I want to be a bikini artist. A bikini artist. Okay, it's okay. We're here now.

SPEAKER_03 7:04

So here I am. Um, and I think funny enough, it kind of started. Oh, we had a conversation about this earlier, but funny enough, it really did start um with me with a teacher at Queen's College encouraging me to apply for um being high commissioner for a day at a high commissioner in Canada in 2017.

SPEAKER_05 7:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 7:23

Um, and they would have formed a group with us that would have um that would have um sorry, that would have applied. And from there I found an interest in gender and development. Um, funny enough, and then that passed on. I went to UI, met Lianne. Lianne. I went to UI, met Lianne, and I think, you know, as I say, the rest is history. Um, yeah, and that's how I kind of just described that gender found me. And then over the years, working with particularly six around 16 days of activism against gender-based violence, um, you know, as a man hearing that men are the main perpetrators of violence, I don't want to say I got frustrated in hearing it, but it was like, okay, this is this is the facts. But what are we doing again? And that's how that phrase came about, to move men from a position of cause to solution. Okay. It's not necessarily the easiest thing because of Caribbean masculinities and masculinities, um, but that's effectively how the group was formed under the framework of how do we move men from position of cause to solution. And we thought peer-to-peer conversation and peer-to-peer education um was the best approach.

SPEAKER_01 8:36

Okay, and so besides the podcast, how else do you do this peer-to-peer?

SPEAKER_03 8:41

Yeah, so I guess um more recently we are uh expanding our physical spaces. Um, so we do have a workshop next week um on conflict resolution um with young men and boys. Um, we would have um I remember having some team members in Trinidad. Um, we found that it was important for me to understand the difference in culture. And I remember my first visit to Trinidad, within less than 24 hours, I was culture shocked. Within less than 24 hours, I was culture shocked. And I think what the team did was a really good job, hats tapped to them. They ensured that you know I wasn't getting this surface level that most people may get in Trinidad, but I was right into the meat of the matter. I remember my first engagement, there was a a program with men and boys in a secondary school, and I was shocked because in Barbados, you know, we tend to be a bit more reserved and in talking about certain topics, but here these groups of young men are just bum, like it's just like, and you know, there's no filter, and I really enjoyed that, but it very much was a culture shock coming from Barbados.

SPEAKER_01 9:51

Um as a Trinity Baker in my life skills teaching area. I did try those that was one of my activities I had to do. I had to go into schools and teach life skills, and it wasn't going into what Trinidad would call the prestige schools or Beijants will call the old schools, it was going into the schools, yeah. Um, petite 5-2 bougie little red savior coming to Talam about anger management because you know you just need to learn how to express yourself correctly, and they're just watching me like, mom, do you have any idea what my life is like? Could you even possibly relate to me? So even you're saying that you had a culture shock because you moved, you you did a session like that in Turnhart, there's even culture shocks within one's country. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:51

I mean, well, I got accustomed to obviously being in the country because I remember um you know, in our initial days, in our initial days, you'd have done a lot of work, collaborative efforts with IGDS. Um we would have gone into schools. What is IGS? The Institute for Gender and Development Um Nitsabarrow unit, and we would have worked with some of Lianne's program. Shout out to Leanne again. And we would have gone into schools and interacted with different persons. And I think having, I remember outside of that, moving from that you know, program and actually just being asked to speak at a secondary school, uh, one of the schools that you know persons don't necessarily praise often here. And it was a it was a little difficult to get them you know engaging and get them to understand that yeah, we wee z wee. Like this, what happens here like stays here, it goes no further. But eventually, as they they warmed up, I think it was one of the best conversations that I've ever had, and to this day I remember it because um oftentimes, again in Barbados, we still have that you know hierarchy in terms of schools, and this school particular is not one of those that are seen as quote-unquote procedures or one of the older schools, but they were able to connect with what we were saying, and I enjoyed them being extremely unfiltered and just being themselves. It was so natural. Um, and yeah, I always remember that that's one of the memories I would probably always keep.

SPEAKER_01 12:27

So that's like one of your triumphs, that's like one of the things that changed the way you viewed your work.

SPEAKER_03 12:33

Yeah, because I think oftentimes, well, we talking boys started with a group of um about four of us, um, I would say, um, well educated, uh, you know, and so there was a certain level of I guess, I don't I guess for lack of a better word, probably privilege within the founders. Um, even though we all came from extremely different backgrounds. Um but engaging with outside of ourselves, I think that's always been interesting. Um, our Discord server actually would have started with majority university students, but then when non-university students asked you uh slightly, I don't want to say all Bruce and questions.

SPEAKER_01 13:14

What is Discord? What is Discord?

SPEAKER_00 13:16

HS I honestly don't know what Discord is, and this is the second time you've mentioned it.

SPEAKER_03 13:23

Yeah, so Discord effectively, how do I summarize this? It's a social, it's a platform, and that a platform I wouldn't say a social media platform, but it's a platform where primarily used for gaming. Um yeah, so for example, you would game and you would have like a channel with a group of your friends, and you would go on instead of instead of for example call having a group call on WhatsApp while gaming, you would go on Discord, and the Discord usually connects to the game, so you can speak whilst being in the game.

SPEAKER_01 13:53

So that's like this is gonna age me as well. Do you know the Leroy um Jenkins video? No, it was just it was viral back then where he was they were playing on a call and they were talking to one another, and he just ran in and just um brawled his name out and killed everyone, I think. And they were just like Leroy. So I in my limited knowledge of gaming, yeah, I think I understand what you're talking about, but I think I also think that's very innovative to use a gaming platform. Um I mean it's not not it's not gaming. You're meeting them where they are, which is like the first rule of social week meet people where they are, which is one of the reasons my approach was not always connecting with the persons that I was trying to teach life skills because I didn't understand where they were. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:49

Yeah, because and you know, it was really interesting because I think when we first started, we knew we were tackling young men. We knew, you know, where we should, but there was also a learning curve as well. Um, so for example, um, there was a set of our um, there's a demographic of our group that you know make go on Discord.

SPEAKER_05 15:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 15:12

Um, but then there's also a major demographic um that we've learned since then that's on Instagram. So what we used to do, we used to have um, because you can have live discussions in Discord. We moved from live discussion in Discord to Instagram lives. And I kind of as reflecting on that, believe it or not, for the first two years of our operation, relationships was the heaviest. Relationships was like we were talking about relationships for two years. And it wasn't that we were talking about relationships because we had that planned. Yeah, we allowed persons to choose what they want to talk about, and everything for the first two years was heavy in relationships, and that was you know, I always wondered why they need to be long, it's a human need to be long, right?

SPEAKER_01 15:57

Um, at least for me, I don't I don't always have the soft skills and whatnot, and I'm socially awkward. So it took a lot of self-work and a lot of being like, oh, when somebody asks you for their your opinion, they mean to agree with them. Oops, I didn't realize that. Like I thought if you wanted my opinion.

SPEAKER_03 16:21

Opinion that you wanted your opinion.

SPEAKER_01 16:24

My opinion, and I was gonna give it to you. So um relationships, whether platonic or romantic, they all they all work. So relationships are hardwork, and you have to like be self-aware and be willing to do the work to be able to have sustained relationships over time. So I think it's important like kudos to y'all to spending that time and not being like, we are on a program, time to move on, but that's also like some of the challenges that we face as do-gooders, knowing like when to listen and to act or when to stay in a situation, like what other challenges that you have experienced in doing good?

SPEAKER_03 17:09

Yeah, I think um, you know, the the initial challenge obviously was um the fear of opposition. Um, the reality is, um, as the co-founders would tell you, um, we Talking Boys was something on my mind. Well, we didn't necessarily call it We Talking Boys, but a group where men can share um with each other um and share in an unfiltered way without any judgment or whatever. Was always an idea. Um it started with a group of four, which is the co-founders, but the fear of opposition um would have delayed the actual um implementation for many years, actually. Well, not many years, not that long, but a couple years I should say, um, until one of the co-founders was like, you know, let's just get this done. And I think one of the things that I really value about being um on the team for We Talking Boys is that the co-founders are firstly a group of really good friends. Um and we continue to try to exhibit that across the team, um, even though we're board and you know, the whole shebang. Um, to keep not necessarily the you know, not asking for like best friend relationships if that's not what the person wants. But to have that kind of um relationship in terms of understanding each other um has helped us in terms of you know checking ourselves when we needed to be checked, um, and being able to, you know work together in spaces and people seeing that and being comfortable with that.

SPEAKER_01 18:41

Okay, so I think you keep driving home the importance of community, you keep driving home, the importance of a good um support system, but you're you mentioned casually, but I don't think it matters the opposition because like as we this is a pilot for me doing a podcast, um pilot season. I don't know how it's going to be received, I don't know if anyone is gonna listen. I don't know if persons I don't know if persons who don't like me are gonna listen just to give me negative ratings, and then we see like popular figures um in social development or just in life in general, people just waiting for them to trip and fall. So when you talk about opposition, are you thinking talking about like similar fears that I have, or are you talking about opposition? Um in I don't know, you tell me what kind of opposition you you were afraid of.

SPEAKER_03 19:35

So, yeah, so the opposition that I was afraid of is was like um again being in kind of the academic space. Um personally seeing it as oh boy, another men's group. Here we go again. And I mean, there's a fair reason why that's why that's you know, but you know, that was a fair, you know. Yeah, one is people are going to perceive it to be, oh boy, another men's group where they continue to praise themselves and not talk about you know certain issues and not talk about things like patriarchy, hierarchy, and these important things that really need to be talked about. And then the second opposition that I was afraid of at the time was how it how would it be received? Um, am I going to launch this and then absolutely nobody shows up? Um am I going to start this? And as you said, kind of going on to what you were saying earlier, the persons who it did not necessarily think were out for me will see an opportunity to be out for me.

SPEAKER_04 20:40

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:41

Um so those are the two types of um, yeah, two types of fears of it.

SPEAKER_01 20:47

Right, because that's also, I mean, that's something I I think of. Um, a lot of the stamps that I had when I was younger, those thoughts have changed and I've progressed into new thoughts, and I'm when I'm doing good, I'm like, is somebody gonna call me a hypocrite? Because I've changed positions and hearing you talk about this stuff too, and I'm like, yeah, it's really hard because it's more than just on your surface, it's thoughts, prayers, and policy, right? Like that's what we hope for, but in reality, there's so much behind that, and not everyone gets a glimpse into who we are and what we and why we're doing it, and um that's one of my one of the reasons for this podcast too, because I felt like in the development section, um I felt like in the social development sector, we preach a lot. You need capacity building, you need this, you need that, the that, you need, you need, you need. But who are we? And I'm asking that question. I'm afraid to. Show who I am because being out there makes you open to opposition as you as you call it, but at the same time, is it needed?

SPEAKER_03 22:14

I think after I think four years of working with the talking boys, it is needed. It is needed. Um I think one of the things every time that I've been overly fearful about opposition, I've been fortunate enough to see the opposite. So for example, when we started and um when we did the um episode around allyship, I was cautious in terms of obviously what was happening in the public space. But weirdly, many persons enjoyed and were really grateful in terms of the level of detail that we went um through that episode. So the few times the times where I've been fearful, um again, I came back to the community and support, even though I may not and may have some opposition or some questions about it, I've I call it a push because sometimes we need a push. Um and capacity building is really good, all these things are really good that you speak about. But sometimes, and I think one of the things that I've learned and understood is sometimes you just have to do it, make the mistake, and learn from it. And that's rough, right? It's rough. I mean, it's really rough because um when we started Discord, uh-huh, we made some mistakes.

SPEAKER_00 23:36

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03 23:37

Um, and there are some mistakes that well, depending on how you class mistakes, well, they're all mistakes that we make. Um and we learn. Um, and the important thing is to learn from them. Um, and with the talking boys, I'm forever fearful that one day somebody's going to be like, you know, this is what it is. Um, even more recently, I was in a space this week, and what it was I was conscious as to what I was saying because I knew what I was saying may trigger um some persons in terms of uh angry response. And this is a space with other men. So what I did is I tried to my colleagues saw me, I the team told me I should I should be really careful, but I tried to tiptoe around the issue and hope that somebody sees me tiptoe around the issue and gets what I'm trying to get at. Um, and thankfully that was the case to some extent, that the one person on the panel saw how I was you know trying to not necessarily be extremely blatant because I didn't want people to feel that I was coming as an opposer, but how I was trying to ensure that within this conversation with men that there were certain principles that often sometimes are not in conversations when you know in men's spaces, generally speaking. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:09

I think you I fully understand. And um it goes so like you you're touching on the soft skills again, you're touching on being able to navigate difficult conversations with grace and also giving yourself grace. And then you mentioned that weird again, that feminist word that people are very fearful of. And um I was doing a workshop, a proposal writing workshop. So when you're writing proposals, you have to tell the funding agency why you are aligned with them, what the policies, what what it is that allows y'all to blend to get an accomplished goal. And in telling persons that, well, you know, this funding agency views views life this way, using this policy, and it was an immediate uproar from one of the men in the in the room. I can imagine that and he tried to do derail the entire conversation because why not maninous? Why it has to be feminist.

SPEAKER_03 26:23

I've never heard that one. That's a new one. Whoa. That's whoa, whoa, okay.

SPEAKER_01 26:28

Yeah, and I had to try to tiptoe around respecting his views because if that is his um persuasion, in this in this place, I'm not in a position to debate you about that, but I'm in a position to be saying that it's not what you think it is. And politely trying to be respectfully disruptive and take control of the room back, so I can imagine on a panel is a little because you don't want to you don't want to um just be like, so well I disagree with my panel member, but you wanna Yeah, and I think one of the things that I'm still learning, um I've gotten better at it, but one of the things that I'm still also learning is don't be a bystander.

SPEAKER_03 27:26

Oh um, and and I don't mean that when I say that I mean and looking at it from a very deep perspective. Because oftentimes in male spaces, um, especially in Caribbean male spaces, some of the things that we have based ourselves upon are extremely different from other men's groups. So for example, we talk in boys, we we we stick to, we try very hard to ensure that we stick to a feminist approach. Um, and thankfully, we have colleagues who are um very, you know, they're in terms of the academic space and they help us and keep us in check. Um, we have principles of accountability that aligns with feminist approaches. That is not the case with many men's organizations, and oftentimes we find ourselves in lockerheads. And sometimes I just, you know, early starts with me talking boys, I would just sit there and just shake my head. I would just sit there and shake my head. But I'm learning how to um kind of tiptoe. It's sad that we have to tiptoe around these issues, but understanding this space that you're in, um because sometimes unfortunately, they're in terms of conversations with men, in terms of men's groups, sometimes they're saying things not because um, you know, sometimes it's kind of like a lack of education, or they may not be aware of this thing. Um, and how do we tackle that? Because we don't want again when corporate source we're talking about is we are encouraging I think the correct word now is positive masculinity, um, but also understanding that for the everyday man, he's not thinking about masculinity or femininity. The everyday man may be thinking about, you know, I need to provide for my family and not necessarily seeing it um as a gendered role or you know, all these different things. Um, so how do we engage with these persons, as you can rightly said, without offending them? Because we they're our target audience. Um, and being a bystander and sitting there and watching it, it's not going to help anything. Um, yeah, and it's really tricky. So that's one of the things that I've been slowly learning to do. And unfortunately, in by learning, you have some a few awkward conversations, you have a few awkward mistakes. Because I remember this one time it was summer, I wrote a very beautiful question, in my opinion. I even sent it to some colleagues to cross-check it to make sure that it was thing. I might deliver if the question was just like I took at least two minutes to ensure it was not, you know, it was very carefully orchestrated. And you know, it was that was a uh a mistake that I made, and it was slightly awkward, but in the end, you know, it was a lesson learned. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:35

You're taking me back to some of my um, so my master's is in gender and development. What I'm listening to you talk, and I'm like, so this is what they call patriarchal bargaining, and the fact that it's not only women that do it, and okay, and this theory is, and I'm loving this for me, and I hope the audience is also enjoying this. That that what we call everyday life, we're not doing it alone. That other persons are facing the same challenges that we're facing, and it's about having that support to help you navigate, having that support to be like, well, this is a soft skill that you need. You need to learn how to figure out how to send an email with a little compassion in it so that the reader doesn't feel like you're attacking.

SPEAKER_03 31:20

Dear XYZ, I hope you're well. This email finds you in good spirits.

SPEAKER_01 31:27

One of my friends was like, apparently, I'm not supposed to say hello, state the request. I'm proud of that.

SPEAKER_03 31:33

You're supposed to give a gentle greeting. I hope this email finds you the best of spirits.

SPEAKER_01 31:37

Yeah, those soft skills. We don't, we're not all just born with it, you know.

SPEAKER_03 31:43

But I mean, again, kind of say this track. I guess it depends on the space because there are spaces where I've seen hi, Renako, the request, sign off.

SPEAKER_01 31:53

I feel like that comes after you have the relationship with the very son. But like for ex and that's the thing, and that's why I told you it was hard for me, like that nuancing, knowing which space do I behave this way versus which space do I like? I don't have that um natural emotional intelligence that most people have. Like, I don't have a high one, which is hilarious.

SPEAKER_03 32:17

You mean you've done a really good job, no?

SPEAKER_01 32:19

Because in contrast, I'm I'm a very deeply caring person. Interesting. So it is a contrast, it's a very stark contrast of my task-focused brain just wanting to get X, Y, and Z done. Because it needs to be done. Like you got my emails, you saw when I could say yes to one podcast, I got like four emails from me, and each one had details in it because I'm not gonna leave any tasks or any subtasks not said, just in case, you know.

SPEAKER_03 32:56

It was really helpful because even when it came to the red ones, it was really helpful. So that's one part of Karen, and then the other part is that I will probably give you all my money if you ask me, and you give me a sad story, and I'm gonna be like no, you see, that's and and as you're a trainee, I'm gonna bring up that experience because I remember that was one of the experiences I had in Shahid, and I and I was like, because I we went, where do we go? We go, we went to town, like you guys don't know what tongue is. Quarter speed, and we were going back to the car, and I saw, yeah, the even today the imagery so six, there was this lady in a I guess like a building's windowsill, and she was selling in, can't remember what exactly we were selling, but then there was this kid, and you know, the Bajin felt was like, whoa, damn, ouch. And then my training friend was like, just be careful because not everybody that you see doing that is actually in need, and it was like, oh I mean, but it was it was rough.

SPEAKER_01 34:06

That's also another one of a car in conflict that you have you've opened a door to.

SPEAKER_04 34:11

Oh boy, because I'm small.

SPEAKER_01 34:14

Um for those listening, I'm small and I'm I'm not necessarily the most observant of what's going on at times as well, because I'm in my head with with my list of my tasks to do, right? So I don't like to give money to persons on the road. Because if I stop to open my wallet on the road, I don't know what else is gonna happen. Because I'm gonna be so focused on that task that I'm not gonna see if somebody else is coming to just snatch my wallet and run. So I'm not gonna be susac, I'm not gonna do that willingly because that's a safety thing for me.

SPEAKER_03 34:53

I think understanding the Trinidad context and having my many culture shocks, I understand. I'll never forget the first time I went to Trinidad, and we were looking for the place. I was clearly too accustomed to Barbados, and I was walking about with my tablet, and I was just like, where's this place? And then my friend comes up to me, I'm like, We're not gonna need to put that up. And I'm like, y'all said that this is a safe space, and my little bit in mine is like, this is totally comfortable. Like you we walk around with tablets and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_00 35:27

Not this kind of situation, but I feel like I have to defend one of that.

SPEAKER_03 35:32

I'm not saying no, I'm not saying I think like for most places there's always crime, and it's always an acknowledgement of um being aware of your surroundings, and in that situation, I was not aware of my surroundings, um, because again, a similar situation can very much happen in Barbados.

SPEAKER_01 35:50

It could very much happen in Barbados, so it could, but we're not gonna do a competition to see who No, we're all equal. We're all equal, but yeah, so like my task focus mind is always at war with my compassion, and I I did sort of want to teach the life skills, and like I had no clue how I was going to do good, and on unfortunately and fortunately, um I was often told that I would have to marry rich, that I will I'm I'm taking a bow of poverty, and that like all these non-encouraging ways when I said I was studying social work, that I wanted to work in a children's home and these things, and I've just been stubborn because for some reason that's the way the Lord made me. And in doing the good, I realized I didn't necessarily have like good boundaries and I had to take this step back, so that's why I'm doing good now from behind a laptop than necessarily um in the on the front line because I'm somebody beat you. Whether or not I could fight, I'm probably gonna be like, so what am I squaring up next? Because you you are not my child, you are not my whatever, so therefore I'm writing. I'm writing, and I'm and I'm also trying to figure out like how could I make your entire like so lack of boundaries really affected my ability to do good um effectively, and I had to learn boundaries and had to do a lot of the self-wake, and I'm behind the laptop now, which is good, and it it allows me to to sort of merge the two the two versions of Karen, the task focused car and the doing good, want to be on the field, want to change the world kind of thing. Um and it it took a journey, it took a journey. I had to remember often people people over projects because I'll get I'll get so caught up in the so focused on the task that I don't know what time I'm messaging you, what time I'm emailing you, or I just I just want my task. I want to be like done, I want to be able to be like completed, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:08

And I think I think you know, funny thing is you you do things and you don't necessarily think about these things. Um, because again, we're talking boys, the executive team in Barbados is extremely small. There's only myself and more recently about two other persons. And it's always difficult because the executive team, for the most part, volunteers a lot of their time. Yeah. And there's so much that we would love to do. But we always have to keep that in mind that you know, here we are all volunteering our time. And there are times where projects will be upcoming, and I would apologize. I would message the executive committee and say, I'm sorry, but you're gonna hear my voice a lot this week. We just I'm going to work with you, so if there's anything, please say apologies for any late-light messages because I'm one of those persons that strangely, before I go to bed, I just have like this weekly meeting in my head about everything that I'm supposed to do, or everything that I should have done, or what is that or things that are coming. And you know, thankfully, initially, thankfully, the you know, the team were really close, but then it came to a point where I I asked myself, what if that was me? Yeah, and then in doing that now, I kind of backtracked a little bit. So whereas thank God for WhatsApp drafts now, yeah. So whereas I would, you know, have those moments, I would not send it. I would wait until the following day to send it.

SPEAKER_01 39:44

And then when you wake up and you will see the draft, oh that's a good idea. That's a good idea.

SPEAKER_03 39:48

And then if anything, if you know, if if anything may be influenced by me thinking it's a priority, but the team understanding it's not a priority, I can change it.

SPEAKER_04 39:57

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 39:58

Because then I've had the time to like kind of sleep on it. Because I think let's be real, for some things, for us as um persons within this space leading the efforts, everything is a priority. It is, it is everything is a priority. Um, but you know, yeah, because I did you do the media?

SPEAKER_01 40:14

It is, you know. Did you bug the cut or it is?

SPEAKER_03 40:19

But yeah, prioritizing in terms of what the what is the priority now? Um, because a lot of the work that we've been trying to uphold and going into kind of media is elevating our um mark homes, um, particularly around everything that we do. Because in the first couple of years, we were one of those persons where we would do a lot of things, but we have absolutely we only have record that we did it because we know we were there, and there may be some email or WhatsApp chain saying that we were there. Yeah. Because we were those persons we show up, we did what we had to do.

SPEAKER_01 40:52

And a roll.

SPEAKER_03 40:54

So, you know, getting obviously because some target audience we may not be able to take pictures, but guess getting some documented um photos.

SPEAKER_01 41:03

Picture of the place, the building, you all want to tell the building, something, right?

SPEAKER_03 41:07

Um, and with that means increase more comms. And I'm always, I'm always, I'm really always on the mark comms because marketing and communications.

SPEAKER_01 41:20

Because it's it's another chicken and the egg thing.

SPEAKER_03 41:23

So it's say it like that.

SPEAKER_01 41:25

Yeah, it is a chicken and egg because if I do a project budget and I put a budget line towards communication, which is a change, because before they didn't use some um funding agencies didn't necessarily want to see that, but now they want to see it. But that means I have less money going towards probably project itself now. However, if I put that communications line in and other funding agencies see me and see my good work, I get more money in the long run. But right now, it's I'm not getting to do the full impact, or I'm I'm not seeing the full impact that I that I wanted to see. Yeah, and it's so it's a chicken and an egg thing in our sector. Yeah, and it's I'm saying it's weird, but it's not weird because And then they will tell you that it's not marketing, it's visible visibility and communications. We don't market the social development.

SPEAKER_03 42:18

And and you and I guess you could share similar experiences. The reality is, you know, you're many of us, well, some of us, I don't know if all of us, but some of us are genuinely doing these things as passion projects. So we give, we don't really care about the pictures or whatever. And I remember there was something that I was applying for, and it kept asking about like articles about what we were doing, and I was like, that's a really interesting one to find. How am I gonna find these? And I think it's weird that we kind of have to be somewhat peers, um, even though we are solely focused and very passionate about the project. Um, but yeah, Mark Homes has become an important key thing.

SPEAKER_01 43:03

It's proof, it's proof that the work is done, and then it's also a way to establish yourself as a thought leader, establish your organization as connected to your beneficiaries and attract other funding agencies. And fortunately and unfortunately, because media is so attainable now, everybody thinks that you can teach yourself it.

SPEAKER_03 43:26

I wish.

SPEAKER_01 43:28

But when am I gonna teach myself it and also earn money to afford to teach myself it?

SPEAKER_03 43:37

Yeah, because I I remember, I think I thought, I think I always thought I was really good at graphics until somebody asked me to do a graphic for something. And I did it, and I thought, oh, that was that was pretty nice. And then the person looks at me and tells asks me, do you think this is a fresh uh a church fish, right? Wow. So is that reality check? I with that reality check, I didn't, I did not well, this was not for Retalking Boys, this is separately. Um, so with that reality check, going into Be Talking Boys, I absolutely do not touch anything more comms. I simply act as as a feedback, a feedback type of perspective. Um, knowing knowing what comes or feeble.

SPEAKER_01 44:29

Oh my god, yeah, and that's the importance of knowing your audience and knowing who you're communicating with and who you need the visibility with and who you're planning to attract with with your work in We Talking Boys and in the social development sector. Um, but we talked a lot about our challenges. Is there anything that makes you happy about doing this work?

SPEAKER_03 44:54

I think you know what makes me happy about doing this work, I think, to start in terms of the internal aspect, is the relationship of the executive team and how I've seen some of them actually grow.

SPEAKER_01 45:10

Um that sounds like I'm old, but it sounds like a value human relationship. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 45:16

So, yeah, so for example, or um the guy who's leading marketing now, um, when we when we first started, we could never get him to, for example, um, he was shy. So things when it comes to hosting Instagram lives or even hosting podcast episodes, they would shy away from. Today, if I want somebody, if I answer somebody to host, I can rest assured they're going to volunteer first. So, like, you know, just seeing that growth and you know, it's not it's seeing the growth within each of us because we all would have started at some point. Um, and you know, though we work to assist um work with men and boys, the work has always helped us in terms of our own personal development in many ways. And I think for me, that's one of the definite things. Um, obviously, outside of the internal team, um seeing positive interactions with men and boys, um oftentimes we may not be able to see what happens further down the line. Um, but just being able to, you know, go into a space and and other men just feel comfortable and just I love when they start to talk because when they start to talk, you know, you know you're gonna get some really good um conversation. And I won't say understand that effectively nothing is on off topic. Obviously, we may have limitations in terms of time, but yeah, just being able to so you love creating a safe space. Yeah, that's what I'm hearing. Internal, you know, I've been hearing the word safe space all week, and um, you know, internally in terms of the gender world, there's always a conversation as if it's safe or brave space.

SPEAKER_01 46:59

And oh I've never heard that one. That that's that's a lot. So, like a safe you're teaching so much.

SPEAKER_03 47:06

That's interesting. I didn't see what I was a teacher today, but the whole conversation is around brave space, not only because oftentimes people say that this is a safe space, uh-huh, and it's kind of cliche sometimes when people say this is a safe space, and oftentimes it is a safe space, but people don't feel safe. So I I don't really like I don't know how to fully explain the difference between, but brave is kind of embodying that and you're putting the person in a position of power that they're being brave to share their story, not that you are being that it's more active on the person who's actually sharing, and and makes them feel because obviously some empowered to share because a lot of the things sometimes may not you know, having a safe space is fine. Yeah, but you really need brave spaces for persons to, you know, kind of to be vulnerable. That's it. So there's this conversation around brave and you know safe spaces, but um at the moment it's like they're both interchangeably used.

SPEAKER_01 48:13

Um but I see it, I I see it though, because it's like a shift I'm calling victim versus survivor. So it's like I'm not a victim of gender-based violence, I'm a survivor, which means that even though this happened to me, it's not I'm not gonna wear it as a leave as a negative label. Like I actively did took steps and I'm living and empowering. So a safe space is like the facilitator created the space, yes, but I'm being brave. I'm the one that is walking through those doors and sharing of myself. And I thank you for introducing that thought last time. That thought, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 48:55

Because I again I am super thankful, really thankful um to be um have colleagues in the gender space. Um, I I technically am as well.

SPEAKER_00 49:06

Yes, you are in the gender space.

SPEAKER_03 49:08

Um, but in terms of that academic knowledge, um oftentimes I think sometimes men's groups tend to shy away from it. But it helps in terms of informed decisions um and having you know blending academia with experiences. Yes. Um, it's always great because we oftentimes we we try to, we don't necessarily say verbatim or depending on the group, we're not going to use any jargon. But we're gonna say the same thing, but it's going to be in a more appropriate way for our audience. And that blend has so far been working really good for us. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:45

I think that's very powerful that you you are deliberate, that you are intentional with the work that you're you're doing at We Talking Boys and creating this safe brief space for other men because often, yes, um, when you hear of a man's group, it it's I think of the man's group in on Parks on Rack where they they were protesting the fact that Ben was supporting his wife, and you know, that that having a woman leader is going to lead to the detriment of men. And you're saying that's not the type of man's group that we are. We the type where you you could come and you could talk to us, and we will not just preach to you, but we're gonna have we're gonna build a relationship, be intentional, and allow you to ask questions, allow you to think through changing your thoughts to to maybe a positive thought, maybe challenging the way you were brought up, which is not a easy yeah, and I think it it definitely isn't easy.

SPEAKER_03 50:55

And I I remember the founding team, and we first started, I said to them, the reality is what we're trying to achieve here. We may very much all die and never see it. Um you know, social change takes a couple years before you can actually see it. Um, and though that is a reality, and though that is always in the back of our minds, we still know that we really need to, even if it's just our little two percent, our little two percent in, you know, as I said, building that relationship. And one of the things that we found is not coming from that immediate judgment perspective, but allow you to say whatever you want to say, even if we may raise eyebrows when you say what you say, yeah, um, and then talking about it, and again with relationships. Um, we did it relationships and it went kind of along the lines of romantic relationships, it was such a popular topic. We actually had to do Instagram lives on relationships, and even sometimes when we did, because we had this thing where we're trying to start up back now where we would have done random Instagram lives and the guys would just join us, and it would just be whatever vibe we decide the vibe is. It would for those first two years, it would always go back to relationships. And I remember um one Instagram live, they were uh we were just you know vibing as we usually do, and a comment was made in terms of um a romantic relationship between a young man and a and um and um a girl, and they some of us were in the same space, so we looked at each other and we was like, oh boy, here we go. And you know, it some the reality is at that time some other males were in agreement, and we were like, okay, how do we tackle this? And we kind of allowed the person to continue, and then we flipped the switch. So then when we flipped the switch and put them in a position, it kind of it kind of stopped. They didn't necessarily want to continue. They next they didn't necessarily say, yo, you were right, but they paused, and that's all we need.

SPEAKER_01 53:07

That's all we need, that's all we need that simple pause.

SPEAKER_03 53:10

Um, and then there's sometimes where we had to kind of take a roundabout approach in addressing the issue. Um, but what but ensure that we don't, you know, we're not preaching or we're not we hope that we can change your mindset, but that's you know, for us to go in to say that we're going to change somebody's mindset, it's not gonna work.

SPEAKER_01 53:33

You're managing your own expectations, and I love that that's something that we need in to avoid being out and doing good, we need to be able to manage our own expectations and be like, we're not going to solve will hunger from this project.

SPEAKER_03 53:48

But we can do a little bit to ensure that um I'm trying to think of a random page name, but ensure that that John and his family are eating for the night.

SPEAKER_01 54:00

Yes. So that John is able to eat, and that also that they have good communication skills, they have good interpersonal skills because that's what your your focus on on good interpersonal skills to ensure that we can have a sort of equal gender relations um throughout society, and that's such important work. So I have a section where we I ask persons what advice would you give to future do goodness?

SPEAKER_03 54:28

I don't know if I have any I don't know if I'm not having the right person to give advice.

SPEAKER_01 54:33

Um not to make this into a therapy section. Why do you think you're not the right person to give advice? You have a podcast, you have an organization that's been going on for four years, and you're incorporated. Come on, yeah. Why are you not?

SPEAKER_03 54:50

No, we're we're still going through the incorporation process, but reality.

SPEAKER_01 54:54

Well, that that is a journey.

SPEAKER_03 54:57

Let's not talk about that. Yeah, I think, and that's often something.

SPEAKER_01 55:01

And the challenge of doing good, it's not easy, it's not the incorporation process is a pain sometimes.

SPEAKER_03 55:08

But I don't know what advice I give to other two gooders. I think what I said earlier, I think that's that's would be my advice. Like, understand that every and I guess it's kind of just general advice because it I find that because of social media, we often see things and we think that they this is the reality. But being bold, being brave, and don't be afraid to miss make mistakes. I think for me, in terms of reflecting on my own journey with We Talking Boys, the moment where I stopped, and I don't want to sound bad, but where I stopped caring so much about what other persons say, not only what other person is saying, but making mistakes and seeing mistakes, seeing mistakes as a reflection of me not being competent or me not being able, rather than seeing it as okay, this mistake was made because of XYZ, what can I do in my reflection to go through it? Um so I think yeah, being brave to and don't be afraid to make the mistakes, and kind of what you also what we both mentioned earlier, having that support system because there are days where you are going to be like, why am I doing this?

SPEAKER_04 56:20

Yes, yes, why am I doing this?

SPEAKER_03 56:24

Like, we want to do this. We've partnered with this body, but it's an interesting partnership, or we want to do this, but zero zero zero zero money sign, right? Um and obviously when we talking boys first started, and we still do it to some extent now. Um a lot of the funds, I mean, we were doing small activities, came out of our own pockets. Um and I mean we're happy to do that, yeah. But as you grow, it becomes challenging and unsustainable. Um and again, kind of going back to what I was saying earlier, understanding that at the present moment, like effectively they're part-time volunteers. Yeah, like all of the executives are part-time volunteers. We all have our nine to fives, our boring nine to fives that we don't do every day.

SPEAKER_01 57:24

Um, yeah, so I think all of those things would be when you keep saying don't be uh afraid of the opposition. I remember one time I was in distress over. I'm always in distress. I'm not a very emotional person. Um my father said, always remember that you don't pelt a mango tree when it's not bearing. And that reminded me of that. That yeah, don't don't be afraid because if they're pelting you, that means that you're bearing fruit and good things are coming.

SPEAKER_03 57:58

Yeah, and I think there's a well, the team, the exec for co-founders week, there was this joke, unfortunately, about um, so there's this one time, just some context, so persons don't say what I'm talking about. There's this one time we were at a friend's house and we were having a party, a pool party, whatever. And Runako knowing well that at the time he couldn't swim, just thought it would be really we were playing, I don't know what we were playing, but the the ball was about to go in the pool. And within that split second, Runako thought Runako was more focused on saving the ball than anything else, and the ball went on the deepest side of the pool. And I ran and you went, slammed the ball out of the pool and straight into the deepest end of the pool.

SPEAKER_01 58:48

Can I tell you? I have a similar story.

SPEAKER_03 58:52

And then had to be rescued.

SPEAKER_01 58:56

So I think now you made me feel good. Because I use this story to explain why I who I am. If I see something in danger or something in need, I'm gonna try to flip. So I was in primary school and I went to a private, private school. So they had swim meets and all these things, and they were gonna have a swimming competition. Um, and we were going by houses and they had a race, and nobody would volunteer. And I was like, well, the adult needs somebody to raise their hand. So I came out. And I went to the sperm meeting. I did not tell my parents anything. I was just going to these permit as part of school's activities, you know. Went, jumped into the pool. Went straight down. Until a hand came down and pulled me out. And this is a story that my parents tell to this day. And I used to be really embarrassed by the story until I finally did the wake to realize, but that's just me. If something is needed, you're gonna dive in the lack of boundaries.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:26

There is absolutely no explanation.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:28

Because of course I know this now. No, that I have watched all these therapy tips and what at that age.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:36

It was just like, well, they needed somebody to do it.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:40

They were there to do it.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:42

Whether or not I was qualified or not.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:48

Totally ignoring that you weren't qualified.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:52

Similarly, you were like, somebody needed to do it.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:56

And dive straight into it.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:57

And dive straight, and that's something that I think probably too good as do. That we need to sometimes step back and be like, no, um, we can't rescue everybody, and we can't, we can't take part in everything just because somebody needs to do it.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:14

I think, you know, and that's a really good thing in terms of um setting boundaries, and I think that's probably one of my things. Because realistically speaking, I mean, let's be real. Um, so for example, yeah, I guess confirm it into We Talking Boys. Within We Talking Boys, there's like every 16 days of activism around international men say 16 days of activism, we know we're going to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:36

16 days of activism runs from the 25th of November.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:41

Um 25th being the International Day of Image of the Elimination of Violence Against Women and Girls, and the 10th being um International Human Rights Day. But, you know, we have busy periods that we're talking, boys, and I'm the type of unfortunately also dive into deep end. And there are times where there are times where I have like there was like I would when persons ask me to do something, yeah, yeah, sure, yeah, sure, bam, bam, bam.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:11

How are you gonna get this too, buddy?

SPEAKER_03 1:02:13

Like, and then you only ask yourself the after the question. I mean, even to even more recently it happened to me, and thankfully, you know, because of things out of my control, one event got moved.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:25

Um, so you know, it well, in the context, this is a good point to tell you that Leanne in her closing to advice to future Junkaders was I'd have an arco to take off his phone and lie down in his back.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:43

I'm just gonna remind you boundaries. We don't always have to rescue the ball.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:50

And I'm speaking to you because I you know, realistic, you know, again, a case in point today, and um, so I'm traveling next week.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:58

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:59

And I there was something for work, and I was I got a call. Renako, can you do this? XYZYZ. I said, sure, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm gonna be there. After the call, I realized that's the day before I travel, and the day before I trap the day that I do travel, I have a whole day workshop, and I need to get up on a plane after this whole day workshop. And I I remember sending a voice note to two of my executive committee members in We Talking Voice, and I said, Well, I can't say what I said because it was very vocal in what I said, and I said, I literally asked them, am I stupid? Like, I know my schedule is already packed. Yeah, I already have increased um demand because I need to get things done before I travel, but yeah, I said, yeah, I'll be there. Know it full.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:54

I feel like your weight for 2025 is boundaries.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:57

So Leanne is very high-sol.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:00

Exploring all the issues that are stopping you from having good boundaries. It's not, it's not gonna be pretty as somebody who spends a lot of work trying to figure it out. It's not gonna be pretty seeing yourself in the mirror.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:14

Yeah, because I think I think sometimes we often um, because I unfortunately not sure if you have experienced that, I think that was kind of my come to Jesus moment in terms of you know trying to act to. I mean, I'm not the best at it, still haven't gotten the the nice big tickets yet, but getting there. Um, but my come to Jesus moment was very much where I was doing, doing, doing, doing, doing, doing. And then after the period of silence where I needed to relax, one I couldn't relax because it was so weird. I found things for myself to do, and then secondly, I actually got sick.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:46

Yeah, your body will take you ass if you don't give it rest.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:49

And that period was like everybody was like, Yeah, you did this to yourself, and I was a come to do this woman.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:55

Still not the best at it in terms of saying you'll get it there, but you're gonna you're gonna have to do personal work to get there. Yeah, and as if you want to face yourself anymore, which is not always the easiest thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:07

It's hard. It's it's it's hard because um, even again, we talk about being vulnerable, and the team reminds me that I don't need to be so filtered in certain conversations, but even reflecting on a conversation um last night, um, and I think probably probably unknown to me, but I was actually talking to an ex-partner, and we were reflecting on things that would have happened, and because of because I've been able to do some work, I was able to connect that with some things that I didn't necessarily even think about. And they were like, and they said to me, why they said, if you had, if you, if this was the type of conversation we had, then the outcome would have been totally different. But in understanding that, at that time, I was not I was not that person, so yeah. It's always looking yourself in the mirror and addressing having knowing when to address certain things, whether it be on your own or even seeking um help, is rough.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:12

It is.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:12

And for men, it's rougher. Rougher is not a word, but no, I get you.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:18

I get you. And but the the work that you do would require you to also to look inward.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:24

Inward.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:25

So so thank you so much, Ronako. Thank you for teaching me so much today. I love the line of um if woman could have solved this final, it would have been solved. I think I just butchered your line.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:38

No, I summarize what the author is saying. So I kind of butcher the author, but um, because the author did specify what exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:45

Um, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:45

And then also the brave safe spaces. I love that we could probably merge it together because make it look like if the facilitator is working with and not, you know, saving those who are in the space as well. And I just want to thank you for reminding us that it's okay to make mistakes. That was also a self-reminder as well, but it's okay to make mistakes and give yourself grace. Yeah. So thank you so much for being on it on this podcast.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:14

Thank you for having me.